RIP Brian Wilson

[504 lover lover]

 

[Sheens]

On 6/12/2025 at 10:04 AM, craigb said:

 

 

[Starship Krupa]

On 6/13/2025 at 7:27 AM, Sheens said:

 

Not sure what this is supposed to mean in this context, that Brian's songs hold up outside the Beach Boys context? Or not?

To address the matter of writing/playing all of their songs, well, it ain't as if The Beatles played everything on their own songs. "Within You, Without You" and "Eleanor Rigby" being examples. Paul of course sang "Rigby," but does he or any other Beatle play a note of the music? George may have played some sitar on "Love You To" and "Within You," but there are no other Beatles on it.

I consider "The Beach Boys" to be a brand under which various people have created music over the decades. Starting with Brian, then later other people. I think that post Pet Sounds, the "producer" of individual songs was different for each of them. There was also a changing collective of individuals that was referred to by that name, and the people in the Beach Boys collective would vote on what songs to include on an album. Then whoever wrote the song it or brought it in took charge of it. Usually using other band members on vocals and a combination of band members and session players on other instruments. Brian might make it into the studio to offer assistance with arrangement and studio trickery. Depending on his mental state.

Live, they were a cover band of their own songs.

You can't exactly call Brian the "creator" of "Feel Flows," to name one. That was Carl's baby, and the backing vocalists aren't even official Beach Boys. Marilyn (and maybe  her sister Diane) is prominent. Brian may have played the piano, and he claimed to have played organ and added some production tricks, but it's a Carl song.

Post Sgt. Pepper, The Beatles also functioned this way, although the lineup never changed. The core musicians were always there, but they did use Billy Preston and Eric Clapton for some prominent parts.

Brian, under the Beach Boys moniker, was a great creator/producer of songs. He created them in collaboration with some of the century's other great talents, like his brothers and cousin and classmate on vocals, and various session players and lyricists.

Beach Boys songs are hard to cover well because so many of the production and engineering details are integral to them. Like the above cover of "'Til I Die." The first thing that popped out at me was that the bass line was run of the mill compared to what Brian did on the released version. I'm a bass player and I've tried to work out the exact rhythm and notes of the bass part of "'Til I Die" and been frustrated every time. It goes against so much of what is considered "rock bass" that it's as if it's in a language that I don't speak. It's not physically hard to play, it's mentally hard to play. Where your bass player instincts tell you to play this or that note, there's no note, and when the next note comes, it's a note you wouldn't expect on a beat you wouldn't expect.

Other songs stack melodies and countermelodies 3 deep.

He could communicate stuff like that to other geniuses like Carol Kaye, but I have to listen to it phrase by phrase and even then....it's no wonder that McCartney practically idolized him.

So it's hard to "cover" a Beach Boys song because first you have to round up a vocal group as good as Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al, and Bruce, then you "cover" the production techniques, and by the time you do all that, what's the point? You can incorporate his style into your own songs, as Carl did on Surf's Up and Sean O'Hagan did on Hawaii, but it's rare.

It's not impossible; John Legend did a cracking "Sail On Sailor" on a Brian TV tribute that I wish I could find on YouTube or Dailymotion. And they did what I say: get a hot vocal group, and copy as many of the production and arrangement details as you are able (the guitarist even nailed Carl's guitar fills). The original "Sail On Sailor" had Beach Boys footnote Blondie Chaplin on lead vocals....

Edited Wednesday at 04:11 AM by Starship Krupa

[T Boog]

18 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

I consider "The Beach Boys" to be a brand under which various people have created music over the decades.

Cheers Krupa! We seem to be expanding on our "Ethics of fake guitar" discussion 😄.  I'm exhausted right now but I look forward to reading ur post tomorrow. It really is an interesting subject. Until tomorrow, be well my friend 🤙

[Shane_B.]

8 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

To address the matter of writing/playing all of their songs, well, it ain't as if The Beatles played everything on their own songs.

To me, the difference is they didn't hide it so to speak. Nobody with strings in their song sat there and did it themselves.

But the difference between the two groups is, one had professional studio musicians do most of the work, the other did it themselves and were closely involved in the process from start to finish.

And there's no right or wrong in regard to doing that. But more of my respect goes to The Beatles for the group hands on. At least at the beginning. As technology improved over their careers, then they changed. And eventually went back to the early days. 

The other thing for me that really turns me off about The Beach Boys is their involvement with certain people. I've read that one psyco inparticular actually co-wrote some of their hits but never received credit. Hard to say if that's true but there's no denying their involvement with him. 

And as I sit here typing this Please Please Me comes on and all I hear is the 4 of them. Messed up lyrics and all ... 🙂 listen close around 1:25. 🙂 You can hear the frustration in Lennon's voice when he does the first "Come on" after the mess up. 🙂

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:47 PM by Shane_B.

[Starship Krupa]

7 hours ago, Shane_B. said:

To me, the difference is they didn't hide it so to speak.

There's an odd fact about mid-60's Brian Wilson/Beach Boys: "Caroline, No" was released as a Brian Wilson solo single a couple of months before Pet Sounds came out and included the track. None of the other BB's appears on it, not even on vocals. It's all Brian and session players.

As with so many things Beach Boy, just about everyone involved (or not involved as the case may be) has a different story about whose idea it was to do this and what the motives were. Steve Douglas, who had been a session reed man on BB's records before he became an executive at Capitol, claims that it was he who pushed it the hardest.

Was Brian considering going solo?

Was his buddy Steve Douglas trying to rescue him from the dysfunction he observed within the Beach Boys? If the song had done better than #32 on the Billboard chart, would he have done so? Would Pet Sounds have been his last album as an official Beach Boy?

I'm a fan of the Beach Boys and the Beatles, and I've never understood why they get compared to each other. They're two different animals. The Beatles were the first pop act to make fans care much about who played or wrote what on any given song. Bob Dylan followed close behind.

Was it that the Beach Boys were one of the few American acts that seemed to be able to hold their own against the British Invasion?

Brian and the BB's stuck closer to the earlier tradition as soon as they could afford to hire session players. Brian was the only one in the band whose musical talent got any attention.

I don't think there was any attempt to "hide it," they just didn't think that people cared about such matters. I think they were blindsided by the rise of the more serious rock press.

They finally got on board the "authenticity" train, but late in the game. Maybe too late to be taken seriously by the fans of the day.

Maybe Pet Sounds and Rubber Soul could be considered on a par? Brian is said to have been knocked out by Rubber Soul, the idea that an album could be its own work of art rather than a collection of a couple of singles and the rest filler. But by the time of Revolver, the race (to the extent that there was one) was over.

Whatever, I think it's pointless to compare the acts. The Beach Boys were closer to The Association, The Mamas and the Papas, and other vocal groups where some of the members happened to be competent enough at one instrument or the other to get to play on the records.

[Starship Krupa]

On 6/18/2025 at 5:44 AM, Shane_B. said:

I've read that one psyco inparticular actually co-wrote some of their hits but never received credit. Hard to say if that's true but there's no denying their involvement with him.

Dennis, the most troubled, out of control one was friends with him for a time and traded said psycho some cash and a motorcycle for the bare bones of one song. It was an album track. Not a hit.

Stephen Desper, the house engineer, says that the only time he ever saw Chucky rattled by anyone was one evening at the studio when Chucky, in his usual way, was tossing around insinuations and said something to the effect that if they screwed him over, it would be "terrible to see anything happen to anyone as a result," followed by the trademark psycho leer.

Carl, the sweetest brother, the peacemaker, the one with the angelic voice who sang lead on "God Only Knows," got right in his face and said words to the effect of "if you ever lay a finger on anyone in my family I will end you." According to Desper, it shut Chucky up and wiped the leer off his face, not an easy task. Whatever else, the guy wasn't stupid about who was or wasn't buying his con, and he probably realized in that moment that Carl was not impressed and that he had been patient with him up to a point, which had been reached.

The Wilson brothers were all-American types who played sports in high school and had survived an abusive parent. Chucky was a bully who was built like Gollum and talked other people into doing his fighting for him. He fooled Dennis for a while. Dennis never had the best judgement, eventually drowning across the street from my childhood home while drunk, at age 39. I learned later in life that Dennis and I docked our sailboats (mine was 8' long, his was about 40'😄) very close to each other.

[T Boog]

Just my 2 cents... 

Unlike with "The art of fake guitar", I personally dont think of the Beach Boys or Beatles as virtuoso instrumentalists. So I'm not as concerned with who played what. For me, it's much more about the songwriting and voices.

First, I think it's obvious that the Beach Boys harmonies were very superior to the Beatles harmonies. Beach Boys' harmonies are so beautiful, in tune & steady that at times there down right heavenly. 

As far as songwriting, I think the Beatles were more consistent & overall better lyricists. John & Paul were both genius writers. But Brian was like a mad genius. His music writing & harmonic concepts became more complex and explorative. He completely threw the rule book out. 

Anyway, to quote Forrest Gump...  "That's all I have to say about that" 😁

[504 lover lover]

6 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

Stephen Desper, the house engineer, says that the only time he ever saw Chucky rattled by anyone was one evening at the studio when Chucky, in his usual way, was tossing around insinuations and said something to the effect that if they screwed him over, it would be "terrible to see anything happen to anyone as a result," followed by the trademark psycho leer.

i think he was peeved because they changed the lyrics/title? anyway, it's a **** song