Difference in recording quality between Sonar and Ableton light 12?

[Scott C. Stahl]

I recently have been trying to track down audio issues when recording vocals. I complained to Focusrite about the recording quality on a new 4i4 Gen 4.

High bright kinda grainy quality.

They asked which DAW I used and I said Sonar.

They had me install Ableton lite 12. It was a pain, but once done I tried recording on it and it sounded fine.

I then switched to Sonar, recorded same mic, same settings and sure enough, it sounds brighter and grainier. Putting effects on it afterward really brought out the issues with that grainy sound. Something's wrong, but I have a hard time believing this is the cause, but it's undeniable.

Just tried it again a bit ago and same thing. It's fairly subtle W/o effects but it kicks in big time with them. Double checked settings. Both ASIO, both same buffer, same sample rate and bit depth. How is this possible? Win 11 new machine 196 GB Ram. BTW picked up this issue with inst input as well. Have 2 files recorded with exact same setup. Then imported back to an empty Sonar project, level matched and exported as mp3s.

   Top is Ableton. Excuse my crappy singing. No background music just A cappella. Put a few effects on that bottom one especially and it starts sizzling.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:17 AM by Scott C. Stahl
Added mp3 s

[Amberwolf]

I don't have a specific answer, but some questions, thoughts:

 

What exactly does "same settings" mean (specifics), in each program?

Are all the same options chosen for dithering? 

Same driver mode? 

Bit depth?  Sample rate?  latency?

 

If you record a clip in one program, then go to your audio folder, and drag that clip into the other program, or a separate simple wave file player (like windows media player, MplayerC,  etc), does it sound the same?

If you record a clip in each program, then go to your audio folder, and drag both into something like Audacity that has a spectrum view, do the two clips look the same?  

 

[Scott C. Stahl]

4 minutes ago, Amberwolf said:

I don't have a specific answer, but some questions, thoughts:

 

What exactly does "same settings" mean (specifics), in each program?

Are all the same options chosen for dithering? 

Same driver mode? 

Bit depth?  Sample rate?  latency?

 

If you record a clip in one program, then go to your audio folder, and drag that clip into the other program, or a separate simple wave file player (like windows media player, MplayerC,  etc), does it sound the same?

If you record a clip in each program, then go to your audio folder, and drag both into something like Audacity that has a spectrum view, do the two clips look the same?  

 

I simply Hooked up my mic to the interface, recorded in Ableton, then exported the file with 44.1 24 bit to my desktop,

then closed Ableton and opened Sonar, recorded the exact same way and exported with same sample and bit rate.

The problem seems to be in recording... not inside the box.

Took abt 2 mins between recordings.

Then took both files on my desktop and played them via Media player, noted the difference,

then imported both into an empty Sonar project. Level matched them, then exported them both back out to my desktop as MP 3s. Then dragged them both onto this site

[Scott C. Stahl]

No difference in the mic, the interface, or the internal ASIO protocol of both Daws. Same sample and bitrate settings for both. No dithering. Both recorded and exported as 24 bit. then imported back into Sonar as 24 bit then exported as mp3s

Edited Tuesday at 03:37 AM by Scott C. Stahl

[Amberwolf]

What if you take the actual audio files that were recorded and compare them directly?  Not exporting, which creates new, different files, but the files in the audio folder for each program and project. 

That would eliminate processing during export. 

 

Beyond that, maybe someone that knows both programs, could compare all the specific settings you've chosen in each place there are any audio settings in each program, to tell you if there is any difference between them. 

 

[Scott C. Stahl]

I did. I only exported to show them here. There is zero difference between what you hear and what is on my machine. This is the second test, but I've spent 10 hours now going over this... all with the same result.

Focusrite told me to go to the Sonar builders and let them know this problem after quite a bit of fiddling and double checking.

I spent 7 hrs today trying to lay down backing tracks and constantly found the recorded tracks unusable.

I might try to hook up my old Gen 3 4i4 on this new Win 11 system and see if that works better.

When I tested the Gen 3 on my old win 10 system, it was flawless. Same mic, same settings. It's just I hate the old Focusrite Control software

[Scott C. Stahl]

I Hooked up my old Gen 3, but Just left the old Gen 3 control software uninstalled. The Gen 3 unit worked, but it made no difference to the sound.

Then I installed the old Control software for the Gen 3 and Bam! It was great! All issues resolved. Opened up a project and replaced a bad vocal from an earlier session and it was perfect. It was nice to hear a clean vocal again.

Something is wrong with the way the new Control 2 software is interfacing with Sonar. At least on my brand new Win 11 machine.     

Focusrite had made me make sure the factory default had been set and the latest drivers, but still did not help the control 2 with the Gen 4.

For me, Gen 4 Scarlett is a bust with Sonar on Win 11. I might try it on my old win 10 machine and see if it interacts better there, but if it doesn't, Focusrite will have to accept a return or I'll have a doorstop and be a very unhappy customer.

I hope you folks can figure out what's up if Focusrite can't or won't

[mettelus]

1 hour ago, Scott C. Stahl said:

Something is wrong with the way the new Control 2 software is interfacing with Sonar. At least on my brand new Win 11 machine.     

This is something to definitely share with the bakers. The handshaking between the interface and Windows is everything. AFAIK, Sonar relies on Windows to properly see the interface, so I am not sure if there is a resolution short of the Control 2 being fixed, but the bakers might very well have insight as to the "why."

I didn't even realize until someone posted a few months ago that MixControl got "dumbed down" to Control. They said something to the effect of, "If I could see what the videos of MixControl show, I would be a happy camper, but that is not there in the Control software." Even in the days of MixControl, the very last update to that was for a Mac issue, which made Windows usage do wonky things, so I had to back out to the previous version. I got spooked from that and saved multiple copies of the last driver that worked so that mine doesn't turn into a doorstop (that "Mac fix" was, in fact, MixControl's final release).

[John Vere]

And why I don’t like software mixers. Put the controls on the hardware where it belongs. 
 

With software mixers you are adding an extra digital layer to the signal path. Like a plug in. 
And seems almost nobody tests anything on Sonar. 

[pwalpwal]

11 hours ago, mettelus said:

Sonar relies on Windows

this ^^^^ is the underlying cause of more than just this issue (i've promised never to mention one of the others ever again here)

[Scott C. Stahl]

I asked GROK about this conversation....

Potential Causes of the Grainy Sound:
Driver Mismatch or Buffering Issue: Control 2 may be introducing latency or buffer mismatches that cause subtle distortions, especially under certain DAW workloads. This could be exacerbated in Sonar due to its reliance on Windows audio stack integration.

Signal Routing in Control 2: Control 2 might be applying unintended processing (e.g., Air mode or gain staging) that Sonar doesn’t account for, leading to a brighter or grainier sound. Ableton’s integration with Focusrite interfaces may handle this differently, avoiding the issue.

Windows 11 Compatibility: Windows 11 has stricter driver requirements (e.g., DCH drivers), and Control 2 may not be fully optimized for Sonar’s ASIO implementation on this OS. The older Control software, designed for broader compatibility, worked fine.

[Will.]

On 5/13/2025 at 5:04 AM, Scott C. Stahl said:

I recently have been trying to track down audio issues when recording vocals. I complained to Focusrite about the recording quality on a new 4i4 Gen 4.

High bright kinda grainy quality.

They asked which DAW I used and I said Sonar.

They had me install Ableton lite 12. It was a pain, but once done I tried recording on it and it sounded fine.

2i2-Gen 4 here, and about 4 months old. No issues here with my recordings in Sonar. No floor noise or grainy sounds. 

[Scott C. Stahl]

3 hours ago, Will. said:

2i2-Gen 4 here, and about 4 months old. No issues here with my recordings in Sonar. No floor noise or grainy sounds. 

I've done all I know to do to figure out the problem. Thanks for the heads up about your 2i2 working fine. Bad news for my personal setup, but another good clue to narrow things down.

The bakers are going to take a serious look at this so that's the good news.

Thanks so much for the follow-up, Scott—and for including the screenshot and extra details. That really helps tie everything together.
 
We’re going to escalate this to our dev team so they can take a closer look at how Control 2 might be interacting with Sonar on Windows 11. The contrast you’re hearing between the Gen 3 and Gen 4 setups—especially with the same hardware and settings—definitely warrants a deeper dive.
 
We’ll keep you posted with any updates or follow-up questions as the team investigates further. Really appreciate your patience and all the effort you’ve put into testing this! If there's anything we can help with in the meantime, please let us know.

[Will.]

6 hours ago, Scott C. Stahl said:

Bad news for my personal setup, but another good clue to narrow things down.

Question: Do you use a template and is your Pro Channel on when you record by any chance?

EDIT: Just listened to the files attached . . . In fact, it sounds more like there's no dithering happening. Do you have it disabled in the DAW?  

Edited Wednesday at 03:27 PM by Will.

[Scott C. Stahl]

14 hours ago, Will. said:

Question: Do you use a template and is your Pro Channel on when you record by any chance?

EDIT: Just listened to the files attached . . . In fact, it sounds more like there's no dithering happening. Do you have it disabled in the DAW?  

A good question. I'll double check my settings there. I exported the files you heard as 24 bit in this case in both daws. Then imported them into Sonar and exported as MP3s. So If I had screwed up the dithering it should have messed them both up... but I better be darn sure I have everything double checked anyway. Thanks!

[Scott C. Stahl]

1 hour ago, Scott C. Stahl said:

A good question. I'll double check my settings there. I exported the files you heard as 24 bit in this case in both daws. Then imported them into Sonar and exported as MP3s. So If I had screwed up the dithering it should have messed them both up... but I better be darn sure I have everything double checked anyway. Thanks!

I went and checked the settings and did need to change my settings on this machine to import at 24 bit all the time as I had on my previous machine. So I double checked the vocals again... first with the gen 3 i had hooked up, then with the gen 4. The gen 3 recording sounds great, the gen 4 sounds terrible. I even double checked if maybe the settings were improper in the driver or unit and made sure the air was not turned on accidentally.

It was not. The air actually helped a bit surprisingly, but everything still sounds terrible...just with air and air + presence

It was worth a try. I would rather had been embarrassed and found out I screwed it up rather than this. So my gen 4 is not happening, but at least I haven't gone completely senile yet! It was a good exercise and helped me find a lurking problem. Thanks, Will

[Will.]

1 hour ago, Scott C. Stahl said:

I went and checked the settings and did need to change my settings on this machine to import at 24 bit all the time as I had on my previous machine. So I double checked the vocals again... first with the gen 3 i had hooked up, then with the gen 4. The gen 3 recording sounds great, the gen 4 sounds terrible. I even double checked if maybe the settings were improper in the driver or unit and made sure the air was not turned on accidentally.

It was not. The air actually helped a bit surprisingly, but everything still sounds terrible...just with air and air + presence

It was worth a try. I would rather had been embarrassed and found out I screwed it up rather than this. So my gen 4 is not happening, but at least I haven't gone completely senile yet! It was a good exercise and helped me find a lurking problem. Thanks, Will

Last attempt for the focusrite 4i4. 

Dont forget to go into Preferences > Playback and Recording and verify if the dither is set to NONE or Triangular. Triangular is the standard default setting for all DAW platforms. Bring out that golden baritone voice, record a line or two and verify if this helped. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Will.

[Scott C. Stahl]

9 hours ago, Will. said:

Last attempt for the focusrite 4i4. 

Dont forget to go into Preferences > Playback and Recording and verify if the dither is set to NONE or Triangular. Triangular is the standard default setting for all DAW platforms. Bring out that golden baritone voice, record a line or two and verify if this helped. 

Tried it this AM. GEN 4 sounds smoother with Triangle OFF (NO DITHER), But neither comes close to GEN 3.

Interestingly, GEN 3 Sounds Smoother with Triangle ON Rather than OFF (NO DITHER). GEN 3 sounds better yet with POWR 3. I've simply recorded and listened intently without exporting anything to avoid further complications.

All of this has been a major PITA, but I prev had no idea that the dithering setting could change the RECORDING sound in SONAR?!?

Exporting to a lower bit depth, yes, but not this. Here are the results all exported to Mp3 with POWR3 Dithering.

Top left GEN 4 NO DITH ON RECRD.  TOP RIGHT GEN 4 TRIANGLE ON RECRD. 

2nd LEFT GEN 3 NO DITHER ON RECRD.   2nd RIGHT GEN 3 TRIANGLE ON RECRD.   

Bottom LEFT GEN 4 POWR3 ON RECRD

Edited 12 hours ago by Scott C. Stahl
typos mixed up listing of files

[Scott C. Stahl]

11 minutes ago, Scott C. Stahl said:

Tried it this AM. GEN 4 sounds smoother with Triangle OFF (NO DITHER), But neither comes close to GEN 3.

Interestingly, GEN 3 Sounds Smoother with Triangle ON Rather than OFF (NO DITHER). GEN 3 sounds better yet with POWR 3. I've simply recorded and listened intently without exporting anything to avoid further complications.

All of this has been a major PITA, but I prev had no idea that the dithering setting could change the RECORDING sound in SONAR?!?

Exporting to a lower bit depth, yes, but not this. Here are the results all exported to Mp3 with POWR3 Dithering.

Top left GEN 4 NO DITH ON RECRD.  TOP RIGHT GEN 4 TRIANGLE ON RECRD. 

2nd LEFT GEN 3 NO DITHER ON RECRD.   2nd RIGHT GEN 3 TRIANGLE ON RECRD.   

Bottom LEFT GEN 4 POWR3 ON RECRD

 

These are all without Effects. Taste varies on warmth, but the smoother they start out and you add compression, eq, etc. that gets ugly fast. No music as I sung these lines. Tried to maintain exact same voice level and mic position. Obviously not a good vocalist, but I hope this gets the point across

[HOOK]

Call me deaf if you want.  I don't particularly hear much of a difference in any of those clips that couldn't be attributed to proximity or axis placement.

Could be overthinking.