Building a PC

[mettelus]

10 minutes ago, Shane_B. said:

I agree with liquid cooling if you are overclocking. I'm not convinced you need liquid if you are running stock speeds, based off the benchmarks I've seen.

Even if not overclocking and something is running "within spec," electronics in particular are subject to dielectric breakdown which is exacerbated by heat (i.e., the longevity of the CPU). This is why aluminum substrates are commonly used to get heat from the source to "whatever" heat sink is used. From a heat transfer perspective, Q = mcΔT is the driving equation and liquids can not only absorb more heat per volume, but can also be driven through a system without noise (if designed properly). To achieve the same with air would require significant airflow (and noise). While there are some engineering feats that have been forced to rely on air (or more often heat dissipation to a larger (highly conductive) metal mass), modern CPUs have a very concentrated heat generation that should be accommodated accordingly.

[hockeyjx]

I don't see the value in overclocking a decent current processor for a DAW at this point in time, I'd rather just add as much memory as can.

YMMV

 

[Jim Roseberry]

10 hours ago, hockeyjx said:

I don't see the value in overclocking a decent current processor for a DAW at this point in time, I'd rather just add as much memory as can.

YMMV

 

Most of us are talking about the CPU achieving maximum rated Turbo Boost Frequency.

That's not the same as trying to over-clock and push the CPU beyond its rated capability.

The 13th and 14th Gen 13900k and 14900k run hot.  They need a large AIO cooler to both reach maximum performance... and to keep things reasonably quiet.

 

As far as RAM and how it relates to performance:

You need enough RAM for your largest projects... so that the machine doesn't hit the VM swapfile (which kills performance).

Additional unused RAM doesn't buy ANY additional performance.

ie: If your largest project uses 16GB RAM... and you're trying to choose between keeping your existing 32GB or updating to 128GB; the 128GB option will result in zero performance gain.

 

Another performance consideration:

Current memory controllers will run two sticks of RAM at much higher frequency than four sticks.

IOW, You'll take a performance hit for using four sticks of RAM.

ie:  A Z890 motherboard can easily run two sticks of quality RAM at 6000MHz.  Try installing four sticks and running that XMP 6000MHz clock-speed.  😉

The machine won't even post. 

Edited May 21 by Jim Roseberry

[Shane_B.]

Fwiw ... I reluctantly OC'd my RTX3060. I only play 1 game and it's pretty rare I have the time to get into it these days.

I have Turbo off on my i7 6700k and everything locked at stock speeds except for the GPU. When I did have turbo on the CPU fan would ramp up and down a lot so I turned it off and locked it to its stock speed. I didn't see any performance change, but I'm not a heavy user either.

I'm running Fallout 4 in 2K with all ultra settings at a rock solid 60fps. Even in the downtown Boston area of the map which is notorious for frame dropping.

Max GPU temp is 60C and max CPU temp is 40C. I don't even have a case fan. Just CPU and GPU fans.

You guys are scaring me talking about the 14900k temps. Lol. Liquid cooling has always scared me, thats why I'm so hesitant to try it. But it does seem that liquid is where it's all going for sure. Maybe it's time I jump into it. 

[hockeyjx]

@Jim Roseberry What I'm really saying is that the Turbo Frequency probably isn't needed for a DAW on a 14900k. I have an 11 gen intel, and I'm nowhere to hitting rim on a synth-laden project. Memory, percentage-wise, is a bigger hog than CPU.

We all have different work flows; and lord knows I like to tinker and get max efficiency, but I don't feel like it is even needed these days.

That said, I'd still tinker 🤫

[Jim Roseberry]

On 5/21/2025 at 9:49 AM, hockeyjx said:

@Jim Roseberry What I'm really saying is that the Turbo Frequency probably isn't needed for a DAW on a 14900k. I have an 11 gen intel, and I'm nowhere to hitting rim on a synth-laden project. Memory, percentage-wise, is a bigger hog than CPU.

We all have different work flows; and lord knows I like to tinker and get max efficiency, but I don't feel like it is even needed these days.

That said, I'd still tinker 🤫

 If you don't need the performance of a Core Ultra 9 285k or i9-14900k, I can understand that.

To me, it doesn't make sense to buy a  high-end "workstation" type CPU (~$500-$600)... and limit its performance with under-spec'd cooling.

Difference in cost between a D15 and large/quality AIO is minimal (especially considered over the lifespan of the machine).

If you want an air-cooled machine, the i7-12700k (~$200) is a better choice.

 

Clients who come to me are always wanting more performance.

Higher performance means they can run heavier loads... at lower latency.

Recently, a composer who's running a i9-13900k (built a couple years back) hit me up about upgrading.

Had to tell him to wait another generation (performance difference vs the 13900k isn't yet enough to justify the cost/hassle of upgrading).

Point being, he's always looking for more speed (the ability to run more... and at lower latency).

 

Speaking strictly for myself:

I've run my favorite piano sample library (The Grandeur) at a 256-sample ASIO buffer size... and at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size.

There's absolutely no doubt that I prefer the immediacy of running The Grandeur at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size.

Timing/response feels amazing... (lower latency than my favorite hardware keyboard - Nord Stage 4).

Edited May 22 by Jim Roseberry

[Mesh]

25 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

Noctua NH-D15 chromax.Black, Dual-Tower CPU Cooler (140mm, Black) https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NH-D15-chromax-Black-Cooler-Heatsink/dp/B09GYKJ63Z

Is this a good cooler?

[Jim Roseberry]

6 hours ago, Mesh said:

Is this a good cooler?

Top-tier air-cooler... but not what you want for a 14900k (as discussed above).

[Shane_B.]

19 hours ago, Mesh said:

Is this a good cooler?

It depends on what you are doing and what cpu you are using. If you are going to be setting this up for gaming, I would absolutely listen to Jim and go with liquid. 

If you are going with a 14900k, the only air cooled option I would consider is the D15. The big giant brown one that wont fit in a lot of cases. The chromax ones are a step down.

This one ... https://a.co/d/fJC9PuX

My only real problem with liquid is the setup and maintenance. It's not a set it and forget type thing. Eventually you will have to working in. It always scares me having to open up a working system.

[Shane_B.]

20 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

To me, it doesn't make sense to buy a  high-end "workstation" type CPU (~$500-$600)... and limit its performance with under-spec'd cooling.

The 14900k was on sale for $388. That's why I jumped on it. I was going to go with an i7 something. It's back up to $425 now. 

I admit it's overkill for my needs 90% of the time, but I do occasionally want, more than need, that kind of power. That said, I've been perfectly happy with my i7-6700k.

My goal this PC build is to future proof it a little longer. Hope I'm making the right call here. Looks like this AI stuff is going to change everything ... Nvidia . Selling GPU's for thousands of dollars with "fake" generated frames that are slower to render real-time than the last generation. Graphics look terrible on them imo.

I never thought I'd say this, but Intel GPU's are looking really good right now. At less than a quarter the price. Not talking about embedded graphics. They are really advancing in the actual stand alone GPU market. I also read about a startup company that has a prototype GPU they are going to release soon that actually renders real-time 10x faster than the newest fastest fake frames Nvidia is pumping out, at a fraction of the price.

I have my 6700k running great right now for the one game that I occasionally play. I'm seriously thinking of buying the Gog (non-Steam no internet required) version of Fallout 4 and leaving my 3060 in it and using the embedded GPU in the 14900k for now.

[mettelus]

15 hours ago, Shane_B. said:

My only real problem with liquid is the setup and maintenance. It's not a set it and forget type thing.

Out of curiosity, where did you find this? Water coolant systems are closed systems and shouldn't require anything other than cleaning dust from the heat exchanger (radiator end). In a way it is similar to a HDD, if you break the seal on it, you void any warranty (that operation must be performed in a clean room to prevent damage to the heads). Not to trigger your fear of water cooling here, but the first water cooling system I ever had (15 years ago now) ruptured (was a cheap POS that came with the machine)... thankfully I was at the computer when it did, but that coolant stank to high heaven (no idea of what chemicals were in it). Breaking a water system isn't something I would recommend to anyone to "just do," since the seals and sealants especially (thread locks) are often designed to be "non-breakable," so you will damage the components trying any disassembly (enough that they cannot be re-used). Some of those sealants cost more than some water coolers out there (which is something I would keep in mind if seeing a cheap water cooler). Fast-forward... the system I am on now has not had the water cooler touched in almost 8 years (other than to clean the radiator).

[Shane_B.]

9 hours ago, mettelus said:

Out of curiosity, where did you find this? Water coolant systems are closed systems and shouldn't require anything other than cleaning dust from the heat exchanger (radiator end).

Over time they do. How well the system was planned out and put together determines the length of time you get out of it and how much you will have to service it. Fluid levels can drop, the system can become dirty and clog the cooling plate, the system may need to be flushed. Leaks can occur. There are a lot of potential failure points. Especially if you push your system and don't have a really clean environment.

There are a lot of video's out there about this, like this one. AI must be at play ... I fired up Youtube this morning while having my coffee and it was the first recommended video that came up. Lol. I've never seen that one before this morning, but there are plenty of maintenance video's regarding AIO's out there.

Then you get into, are you just doing the CPU? Are you cooling the CPU and GPU?

Sorry, I don't have the patients for all of that, but I agree with what others have said that it's almost a necessity nowadays. Especially if you are doing gaming on a 14th Gen CPU with a newer graphics card or doing heavy video editing work. It's just the way the world is going. I personally don't think you need it at all for DAW work though.

I'm convinced the overheating problems with the newer Gen CPU's was a two fold Intel and mobo manufacturer problem. From what I've read they were set up to overclock by default even if you don't overclock. There were also a lot of bad CPU's manufactured and that has been corrected. I don't think running excessively hot was the expected norm and it can be corrected in bios settings.

I'm not sure where someone who does this for a living gets parts, maybe bulk discounts, but I've been watching all the places I have available to me. The cost of the new Intel AI based CPU's that run significantly cooler, plus a new mobo to support them, are significantly higher than the still current Gen 14's. Particularly if you are aware of the limitations of cheaper mobo's and want to get one that doesn't make cuts like split lanes or doesn't have the actual base Gen 5 RAM speed. A lot don't. They split the CPU lanes for the GPU PCIe slot and M.2 drive slot 1 and they only support 4800. Gen 5 RAM is 5600. If you see RAM advertised as 7800 with CL 30 ... most are actually 4800 CL 50. You can tell what their base specs are by turning of XMP. To get the higher specs you have to overclock them. I had to dig forever to find a mobo that did not split lanes and supported 5600 not overclocked. They don't tell you any of that in the specs when you go on Newegg, Amazon, and other places. You have to pick a mobo and go download the manual to find it. The one I'm going with does not split CPU lanes and supports base 5600 without overclocking, but if you fill all the onboard controller run M.2 slots, after the first slot the speed starts cutting down. Same with RAM on all mobo's. Never fill all 4 slots, it cut the speed down. Only ever use 2. If you want more RAM, yank out your old sticks and put two bigger ones in.

Or, buy one off the shelf and save yourself a whole lot of headache and be happy with what you have. They aren't going to be bad. It's just the fact if you have the time to diy and research, you can build yourself a killer system that costs significantly less than off the shelf.

[mettelus]

Thanks for that. I didn't think about the customized/clear tubing/colored coolant part until after I asked. As someone who goes through keyboards every couple of years, I wouldn't go to the trouble of tearing apart a cooler, I would just swap it out. Once seating surfaces show wear, getting a seal to seat properly can be iffy so you might get the chance to repeat the job. I agree that maintenance part is pretty much out of the question for me.

[Amberwolf]

I'm sure they've improved in the couple decades since I dealt with many of them, but back when I did, I saw way too many of them (of all levels of cost and design) with seal failures that let coolant out onto the electronics, damaging things (usually the video card and the motherboard as the sites of the two most commonly cooled things) either immediately from whatever was conductive or capacitive in the coolant, or over time as it corroded conductors, created shorts, etc. 

 

Most of the ones I saw used some form of antifreeze (like you'd have in a car, sometimes actually that exact stuff), or mold-deterrents, etc., in addition to whatever water they used, some were installed with only tapwater in them (some of them with enough chlorine to start to corrode things like the insides of the heat transfer blocks). 

 

The one I had myself was, I think, Corsair, and it was alright, but even without any leaks at seals, it still lost fluid (probably thru the plastic tubing, or the walls of the polyethylene reservoir or it's cap, etc). 

 

 

 

 

[Jim Roseberry]

I've built countless machines using liquid-cooling.

Modern AIO's are closed-loop.  There is no maintenance.  There's no way to perform maintenance (unless you have an "open-loop" setup).

Open-loop cooling is what I'd consider a "hard-core enthusiast build".  You typically have to form the tubing (bends/angles) that carries the liquid.  I'd never use that for a client.  I don't use open-loop for my personal machines.

Yes, I've had a few water-pumps die... but it hasn't been that many (no different than an automobile's water-pump going out).

FWIW, There's no way I'd build a 14900k based machine for a client... and use a D15 air-cooler.

YouTube videos can be helpful... but like AI, they can spout fact and BS with equal authority.

ie:  You can find YouTube videos showing a Threadripper build using a D15.  That's like putting skateboard wheels on a dragster.

Can you bolt it together, yes.  Will it operate, yes.  Will it be anywhere close to optimal performance, no.

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:39 AM by Jim Roseberry

[Shane_B.]

17 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

I've built countless machines using liquid-cooling.

Modern AIO's are closed-loop.  There is no maintenance.  There's no way to perform maintenance (unless you have an "open-loop" setup).

Open-loop cooling is what I'd consider a "hard-core enthusiast build".  You typically have to form the tubing (bends/angles) that carries the liquid.  I'd never use that for a client.  I don't use open-loop for my personal machines.

Yes, I've had a few water-pumps die... but it hasn't been that many (no different than an automobile's water-pump going out).

FWIW, There's no way I'd build a 14900k based machine for a client... and use a D15 air-cooler.

YouTube videos can be helpful... but like AI, they can spout fact and BS with equal authority.

ie:  You can find YouTube videos showing a Threadripper build using a D15.  That's like putting skateboard wheels on a dragster.

Can you bolt it together, yes.  Will it operate, yes.  Will it be anywhere close to optimal performance, no.

 

Damn it Jim, I'm barely a guitar player let alone a PC builder. (Bones/Star Trek)  

I was always under the impression liquid was strictly for overclocking. I just did a quick search for closed loop AIO's and the cost isn't that much more than that beast of a D15. The bad part is though, everything is going up drastically. My $1100 build is now $1500 (W/D15) ... $1600 for a closed loop AIO.

If I would have had a knee jerk jump on it right away reaction like I normally do 2 months ago when I started looking in to this, I could have built this system for around $1200 w/AIO. Pricing keeps going up by the day. That D15 is only supposed to be $150, it's at $180 now. The highest recommended AIO for the 14900 is $267. Frustrating.

[Amberwolf]

1 hour ago, Shane_B. said:

was always under the impression liquid was strictly for overclocking.

before cpus became so power-dense, that was more or less true*** but now there are cpus that simply generate so much waste heat when run near or at their full capability, it takes a liquid to be able to carry that much heat away fast enough to prevent problems, because room-temperature air simply can't carry that much energy at a flow rate achievable at a tolerable noise level, etc.  

 

 

 

 

 

***but also used as ways to make silent systems, or other environmental situations where simple air cooling wouldn't work for whatever reason