Power conditioner

[Gswitz]

I have had some power sags that impacted recordings. 

I'm looking at getting my first power conditioner. I'm looking for something that does not get too hot. 

Furman? Thoughts? 

[DeeringAmps]

I use a TrippLite for my embroidery machines, followed by a 1500 watt UPS. 
Same UPS in the studio, but no conditioner. 

t

[mettelus]

11 hours ago, Gswitz said:

I have had some power sags that impacted recordings. 

Can you explain this further Geoff? If you are connected to commercial power, I am confused how you could experience a "sag" or recognize it as such. A portable generator will sag, since it loses RPM momentarily when loaded, but commercial power won't see this (would be more circuit related). As Tom mentioned, a UPS would be more appropriate, but I am trying to understand your situation better. If this is in a static location (like your home), having the circuit to that room modified to a higher amperage (30-35) might also be a solution since most circuits are 10-20. Typically the only sag seen with such circuits are when an inductive motor kicks on close to the circuit rating (an inductive motor pulls 3-5 times its running current on start, so a 13-amp vacuum will pull roughly 50 on start, but that is only on start). Are you experiencing this sag when everything is already powered on and running in steady state?

[Amberwolf]

2 hours ago, mettelus said:

but commercial power won't see this

Brownouts can happen anywhere that has sufficient loading on the grid. 

 It used to happen here in Phoenix back in the 80s fairly often, then whatever SRP and APS did then fixed most of it, and we only had it happen a little in the early 90s.  After that, brownouts virtually never happened until the last few years when it has happened a few times in the hotter weeks of summer each year, with a few complete power failures as well (oddly those almost always happen late at night when there is much less load on the grid).

These days I use a laptop so none of that loses any of my work, since it kinda has it's own built in UPS  but a friend of mine a few miles away had power conditioners installed in his condo because he didn't want to risk damage to expensive A/V equipment and bigscreen TV and computer, and UPSes on everything important so no data loss (even on hte DVRs) happens.

 

Some people I know from california (don't know exactly where, but more than one area) have had numerous brownouts over the last several years, mostly in summer, worst when there have also been "rolling blackouts".  

 

 

 

[mettelus]

Yeah, that is why I am trying to get a feel for if this is systemic or localized, and under what conditions it is occurring. Eaton does industrial electronics (made some very unique ones used in my Navy days), and has a nice summary of power conditioning on their web page for anyone interested. They actually have a pretty hard core rack mounted unit with 14 outlets for $425 listed on that page; but if Geoff has specific questions, I would recommend contacting a vendor for specifics. For something like that I would lean more toward an industrial solution (if needed) over a consumer one, but I am still wondering if a simpler solution is adequate (i.e., if the issue stems from loading on the local circuit).

[Gswitz]

The behavior is that I start recording and everything is fine. 

At some point during the recording, 1 or more channels goes glitchy. The level drops a ton but might come back. 

https://gswitz.blob.core.windows.net/tunes/20250302_GeoffMark(4).wav

https://gswitz.blob.core.windows.net/tunes/20250302_GeoffMark (1).wav

https://gswitz.blob.core.windows.net/tunes/20250302_GeoffMark (3).wav

https://gswitz.blob.core.windows.net/tunes/20250302_GeoffMark (2).wav

Please excuse the awful music. The point is the recording. These tracks were recorded together. They should be one track through the compressor and one straight for each of two microphones.

Where i plug in in the house seems to matter. If i run a cable to the garage, i have fewer issues, but i was recording the TV the other day just for a source and even plugged into the garage it happened. 

The neve preamp has 2 outputs for each channel. They do not always go bad in pairs. They do not go bad identically when both lines on one channel go bad. I have replicated the problem with the Neve plugged into the rme ucx and the Neve plugged into the audient asp 880.

Neve let me mail them my preamp and they tested it and say it is fine. 

Just the rme does not mess up. Just the audient works fine. So, i think i have excluded the interface. 

I just have to think it is power. 

I have ordered a furman voltage regulator to try to get a handle on the problem. 

 

[Gswitz]

This is all in my house. I've relocated a couple of times in the last five years. I've really struggled to keep recording, but i do play music with friends. I want the stuff to still work. After we moved into our current spot, some friends installed an ac unit at a cut rate and I'm grateful for it. Idk, but i suspect that it may draw more power than the old one and may strain our electrical system. It is close to my set up. That's why I tried running extension cords around the house. I was trying to see if another circuit might not have the problem. I can record for hours without issue,  but at any time, it might go bad. 

[mettelus]

1 hour ago, Gswitz said:

It is close to my set up. That's why I tried running extension cords around the house. I was trying to see if another circuit might not have the problem. I can record for hours without issue,  but at any time, it might go bad. 

Is an inductive motor kicking on/running when this occurs? AC, dryers, and refrigerators are typical heavy draw items (another indicator is if lights flicker when the AC kicks on, or a vacuum is started). Again, a conditioner is like a giant capacitor in a way, it needs to also draw power to work and will only last for so long before it loses capacity as well (it might last long enough to cover the gaps you are seeing, hopefully it will).

Have you ever gone down and checked the amps on the breakers for the house? The main is the biggie, since that controls the entire box, but the sum of (and loading on) each room can affect the entire house (internal to the box, breakers are simply attached to bus bars so the power distribution is common to them all... why I asked about starting/running motors). I would check that or have an electrician look at it just to get a feel for what your situation is. I am the second owner of this home and the breaker box had essentially no mapping to it when I moved in, so I took the couple hours to map out the distribution in the house. I have actually tripped the breaker (selective tripping) to my studio running all the equipment on higher power (whole lotta amplifiers), but that was just screwing around and at a level that would deafen me with any prolonged exposure. To that end, also check the power draw on equipment you have connected to your studio specifically (especially amplifiers of any type)... wattage/voltage (assume 120) will give you the current draw... if those combined exceed that room's breaker (I am assuming it is a slow-blow/time-delay breaker, why it will endure the sag without tripping), it may be already strained from the powered equipment on it.

Again, that goes back to the breaker box/electrician. If the main can handle it (important point), you can beef up the current to a location BUT the ratings of the Romex installed must be known since that current cannot be exceeded (can cause a fire). To pull those kinds of current, definitely involve an electrician. When I put in my pole barn I ran 80 amps off the main, but the cabling for that is not typical Romex... that stuff is so thick (100-amp underground distribution cable) I kept the extras just in case I needed to replace the starter wire on a vehicle at some point.

Hopefully the Furman will get you where you need to be! I wanted to throw the above out just in case.

[Gswitz]

Thanks so much. The furman arrives tomorrow. I'll learn a lot after that. 

[Gswitz]

There is no change after adding the furman. The Neve is unreliable. I'm sad but I know what to do. I'm going to pull it from the rack and not look back. 

[Gswitz]

I'm still trying. I'm filming the thing trying to catch it messing up. Recording TV for days. Maybe the whole time my problem is in my patch bay. Idk

[msmcleod]

I had a slightly dodgy earth in my house for years - it was functional as far as safety was concerned, but caused noise in the studio.

I used an online UPS in the studio to cure the issue.  They're the most expensive, but have the advantage of always running through the battery and generating their own clean sine wave. Obviously you need one powerful enough to give enough power to all of your equipment.

Note there are three types of UPS available:

• Offline/Standby - is normally off, but kicks in when power is lost
• Line-Interactive - Similar to offline/standby, but monitors the input, and regulates it/cleans it up/ offers surge protection.  Battery power will kick in not only when power is lost, but if the power is deemed to be below or above a certain level.
• Online - Is always on.  Mains is turned into DC, goes through the backup battery, then is converted to AC again from the battery.

It's the online one that I got.

Since getting the house rewired and earth redone, I've not needed to use it, but it definitely helped at the time.

 

[mettelus]

3 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I had a slightly dodgy earth in my house for years - it was functional as far as safety was concerned, but caused noise in the studio.

+1 Which Neve model are you using Geoff? I did a quick read on several rack units yesterday, and they do not have a significant current draw to speak of but the manuals do reference the ground as being critical. They even go so far as to mention not using power extensions. When I saw how low the current draw is on them, the issue may very well be the grounding Mark mentioned. As you have interacted with Neve already, a quicker route may be to provide them with a detailed layout of your setup and see what they say.

[Gswitz]

My neve is a 5211.

I have used samson patch bay. I'm by-passing it and filming with a web cam looking for whether the meters jump when it happens. I've recorded for like 20 hours without error. 

I'm going to leave it like this and get back to recording music. 

We will see what happens. 

[mettelus]

20 hours is a good operational test That Neve only draws 35W, so is pretty small. I checked the Samson quick and there were a few articles about grounding issues, most seemed to be either mode related (half-normal in particular), or from the use of unbalanced cables for any of the connections (one was getting grief from directly plugging his guitar into the bay). I didn't dig into the Samson too much, but 

3 hours ago, Gswitz said:

I'm going to leave it like this and get back to recording music. 

sounds like a better plan anyway.

[Gswitz]

I thought about the grounding too, but it should be sufficient that it is in a steel rack with other grounded things.  Whatever it is, I'm sure it is my fault. 

[jesse g]

I use Furman and they have been reliable.   Don't waste money buying a new one, get if from  Reverb at a discounted price.