Sonar 2025.02 Feedback

[John Vere]

Ripple edit?

[Wookiee]

@Michael Crepps check your auto zoom settings in Preferences 

[Michael Crepps]

ok I see John Vere said ripple edit and Wookie said auto zoom settings. Looking into both of them now.

Looking in preferences but haven't found ripple edit or auto zoom settings yet.

 

Ok I have went thru every option in preferences and I dont see anything about ripple edit or auto zoom.  cant use Sonar at all in this state

OK i found ripple edit all in the track view options. It was clicked on. Unclicked it and now everything is back to normal. I have never messed with that ever so I didnt know where it even was. Wasnt in preferences. Was in track window options. I wasnt aware of ripple edit. Never used or needed it.  Dont know why new patch auto turned it on in my sornar but glad its off. Couldnt do anything with that on.

Thanks for info. Fixed now

Edited Thursday at 09:19 PM by Michael Crepps

[Noel Borthwick]

There is no way that the latest update turned it on. Ripple edit has defaulted to off in every version of Sonar.
You may have accidentally turned it on by clicking on the wrong menu item sometime.

Keep an eye on this graphic to know if ripple edit is enabled.

When its off it should show this:

[John Vere]

In all fairness the icon is just way too small considering the damage it can do. 
Just this morning I tried to split and copy a midi clip and my whole project went crazy! I knew from experience exactly what it was and the reason I posted my reply above. But it is easy to forget you tuned it on. 
Would it be possible to have it shut off as part of screen sets or Workspaces? That way if you forget to turn it off it will be automatically turned off when you open the project again. 
 

[sjoens]

With CbB I make the button bright red so it's obvious.

[Johnny Tsao]

When you press the Alt key twice, the icon in the upper right corner of the window displays an error.

Please refer to the screenshot below.

Thanks! 

[Canopus]

25 minutes ago, Johnny Tsao said:

When you press the Alt key twice, the icon in the upper right corner of the window displays an error.

Please refer to the screenshot below.

Thanks!

I reported this a year ago. Still, nothing. Goodluck.

[Johnny Tsao]

@Canopus Thanks for your reply.

After hearing what you said, I have a clue in my mind. Solving this problem will take a long time or may not be possible at all.
Okay! Just think of it as an incomplete UI design aesthetic. 

[Johnny Tsao]

Sonar's ticks units are inconsistent with CbB

I created a simple MIDI note using CbB, added 10 ticks in the Inspector, and saved it as a cwp file. As shown in the following screenshot:

 

Then use Sonar to open this cwp file. The file can be opened normally, but in the Inspector of the MIDI track, Time+ shows "50". The unit is indeed Ticks instead of Milliseconds, as shown in the following screenshot:

 

 

This is the MIDI Event List:

 

Then export the MIDI file in Sonar and reopen it. You can see that 10 ticks are added to the MIDI notes instead of the "+50" set in the Inspector.

 

If anyone wants the cwp and midi files for the test, here they are

 

 

Ticks_Test.cwp Ticks_Test.mid

Edited Sunday at 12:56 PM by Johnny Tsao
Attach Documents

[David Baay]

3 hours ago, Johnny Tsao said:

Sonar's ticks units are inconsistent with CbB

Go to Preferences > Project > Clock, and change Ticks per Quarter Note from 192 to 960.

[Promidi]

3 hours ago, David Baay said:

Go to Preferences > Project > Clock, and change Ticks per Quarter Note from 192 to 960.

I was thinking this as well, but then I realised this is a per project setting - this clock setting gets saved with the CWP file.

Even if you save as a MIDI file, this click setting is embedded in the file as part of the MIDI spec.

[David Baay]

2 minutes ago, Promidi said:

I was thinking this as well, but then I realised this is a per project setting - this clock setting gets saved with the CWP file.

Yes, but that is the root of the problem. Sonar - and CbB before it - has many tick-based calculations hard-coded to 960 PPQ (e.g. quantize in ticks). CbB's TIme Offset correctly handles alternative PPQ settings but it appears this got broken when the absolute time offset feature was added to Sonar.

[msmcleod]

9 hours ago, Johnny Tsao said:

Sonar's ticks units are inconsistent with CbB

I created a simple MIDI note using CbB, added 10 ticks in the Inspector, and saved it as a cwp file. As shown in the following screenshot:

 

Then use Sonar to open this cwp file. The file can be opened normally, but in the Inspector of the MIDI track, Time+ shows "50". The unit is indeed Ticks instead of Milliseconds, as shown in the following screenshot:

 

 

This is the MIDI Event List:

 

Then export the MIDI file in Sonar and reopen it. You can see that 10 ticks are added to the MIDI notes instead of the "+50" set in the Inspector.

 

If anyone wants the cwp and midi files for the test, here they are

 

 

Ticks_Test.cwp 321.44 kB · 2 downloads Ticks_Test.mid 139 B · 1 download

This is expected.

CbB only supports a track delay in ticks.

Sonar has an additional flag saying whether this delay is in ticks or ms.

As the cwp format is both forward and backward compatible, CbB will load the Sonar project but will not recognise the ms flag, so it interprets it as ticks as that's all it knows about.

[David Baay]

2 hours ago, msmcleod said:

This is expected.

CbB only supports a track delay in ticks.

There is confusion here becase he shows swithing timebases for the Offset, but the thing to note is that the 10-tick offset in CbB becomes 50 ticks in Sonar.

What was not mentioned is that the project clock is 192PPQ. When you open the 192PPQ project saved by CbB in Sonar, the offset value is re-referenced to 960PPQ and changes from 10/192 to 50/960. If you actually re-record the MIDI via loopback with no transmission delay in Sonar, events will correctly land 10 ticks later in the 192PPQ timeline, but theTime+ field is incorrectly showing 50 ticks.

Sonar is not honoring the 192PPQ project setting when setting Time+ in ticks.

A reported back in FogBugz days that this issue also applies to setting quantize and snap values in ticks when the project clock is something other than 960. To get the right musical interval, you need to keep thinking in terms of 960PPQ.

[Promidi]

5 minutes ago, David Baay said:

There is confusion here becase he shows swithing timebases for the Offset, but the thing to note is that the 10-tick offset in CbB becomes 50 ticks in Sonar.

Confirmed here as well. 

I saved a 192ppq CWB file with a single MIDI track with an offset of +10 ticks in CbB.  I loaded the same file in Sonar 2025.  The MIDI track offset does indeed become +50 ticks.   I confirmed the clock opened as 192 ppq in Sonar 2025 (as expected due to clock being per project).

I opened the test file again in CbB, changed the clock to 960 and resaved.  When I opened the file in Sonar 2025, the offset still changed to +50.  I confirmed for this instance of the file, the clock was set to 960 ppq in Sonar 2025.

Looks like Sonar 2025 can indeed change the MIDI track offset of older projects where those clock are set to a value less than 960 ppq.

The reason I never saw this situation arise is that since the Platinum days, I am always used a clock of 960ppq.  I do use time offsets, but when I open older projects in Sonar 2025, MIDI track offsets did not change for me.

[Will.]

17 hours ago, Johnny Tsao said:

Sonar's ticks units are inconsistent with CbB

I created a simple MIDI note using CbB, added 10 ticks in the Inspector, and saved it as a cwp file. As shown in the following screenshot:

Then use Sonar to open this cwp file. The file can be opened normally, but in the Inspector of the MIDI track, Time+ shows "50". The unit is indeed Ticks instead of Milliseconds, as shown in the following screenshot:

Are you sure it's not project related? The cwp.file doesn't look right. The Midi clip shows one note in the TV (which indeed you say you've created) but the PRV shows 3 notes. 

Maybe others can test on their side too? 

[David Baay]

13 hours ago, Promidi said:

Looks like Sonar 2025 can indeed change the MIDI track offset of older projects where those clock are set to a value less than 960 ppq.

That's not exactly what I'm seeing or saying. Sonar doesn't change the offset, musically, it just always references the entered/displayed value to 960PPQ.

If the project originates in CbB, the displayed value will increase from whatever was entered by a factor of 960/x, where x is the PPQ setting of the CbB project. The actual absolute delay that results from that at any given tempo will be the same.

If the project originates in Sonar, and you change the project clock, you have to continue to enter tick-based Time Offsets based on 960PPQ,

[Amberwolf]

10 hours ago, Will. said:

The Midi clip shows one note in the TV (which indeed you say you've created) but the PRV shows 3 notes. 

Maybe others can test on their side too? 

In my ancient pre-bandlab SONAR it shows three notes in a single clip in either TV, TV-PRV, or PRV. 

[David Baay]

12 hours ago, Will. said:

The Midi clip shows one note in the TV

That's just because the track isn't scaled properly in Sonar to show all the notes.