feature request Panning of Stereo Sources and stereo buses

[norfolkmastering]

I recently wanted to move a stereo piano track (recorded from a Yamaha CP33) a bit to the right of centre to sit better in a fairly busy mix.  It's not something I would often do but it was what the mix needed.

I noticed that as I panned the piano right, that I started to lose a bit of the low end.

What I think is happening is that as I pan right, the right leg of the audio stays the same level but the left leg is reduced in level (so the sound of the piano is altered) .  In my thinking the standard pan function provided by Cakewalk is fine for mono sources and fine for balancing the relative levels of left and right legs (should they have been recorded at different levels) but that it doesn't act as a true stereo pan.

Thinking back a very long way to the 1970s, I remember that mixing consoles in the BBC (in London) used to have mixing consoles (analogue of course!) with dedicated stereo channels.  Each stereo channel included:

- An input stereo balance control, used to correct any unintentional misbalance between left and right audio legs (much the same as the input pan on Cakewalk buses)

- A stereo offset control used to move the stereo image left or right within the stereo field

- A stereo width control

From memory, the function of the stereo offset control was as follows:

As you e.g. move the stereo image to left of centre:

- the original left audio feed stays at the same level

- the right audio leg is reduced in level

- an amount of the right audio source feed is fed to the left audio

So in an extreme case, if you moved the stereo image fully left or right then you would end up with a mono version of the original stereo source

In practical use, it means you can move a stereo source a bit left or right of centre without changing the essential tonal sound of the stereo source.

I think that the stereo width control was also used to widen a slightly moved (from centre) image (which would otherwise lose width as its moved).

Another practical example would be an acoustic guitar recorded in stereo (maybe one mic pointing at the sound hole and a second mike pointed down the fretboard).

Treated as a stereo source, you would ideally want:

- an input balance control to set up the best sounding combination of the two mics

- a stereo offset control to be able to move the guitar left or right of centre without unduly changing that tonal balance

- a stereo width control to be able to set the desire 'width' of the guitar within the stereo image

So I guess I would pose a question.

Does the standard Cakewalk Pan Pot work as it should on stereo track sources and on stereo buses?

If not, would a stereo offset control be an improvement?

[DeeringAmps]

Channel Tools will do what you need. 
Not in front of the DAW so I can’t tell you how to access it. Someone will chime in.

t

[Wookiee]

@norfolkmastering check what pan law you have applied within Sonar. Different pan laws hwve different affect on signal levels through the pan from being +/-3dB louder or softer. 

[norfolkmastering]

Channel Tools looks like it has the tools to do what I want.

Do you know how I can get full documentation for this plugin?

I tried hitting F1 and nothing appeared.  In fact I'm struggling to get any of the plugin help to appear using the F1 key!

[DeeringAmps]

https://legacy.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=NewFeatures.057.html

However, the last line is: For more information, see the Channel Tools online Help.

Well, good luck with that...

t

[norfolkmastering]

F1 key didn’t work but I found the online help using a mouse right click.  That brought up the online help.

Channel Tools allows the left and right legs of a stereo source to be freely moved anywhere in the stereo field which is great.

It also has the facility to alter the width of each of the left and right legs of the stereo source but I don’t understand how this works?

[Sal Sorice]

@norfolkmastering, this video may help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zoauo9j8jk

[sjoens]

Some sampled/electronic pianos spread the keyboard over the stereo spectrum so that lower keys are more left and higher keys more right.  If you pan these one way or the other you can loose some of the dynamics.

If you don't have something like Channel Tools, you can:
1.  Record/freeze the synth and bounce the audio to mono
or
2. Split the piano to left and right mono tracks where they can be panned separately.

[Will.]

6 hours ago, norfolkmastering said:

I noticed that as I panned the piano right, that I started to lose a bit of the low end.

 

This is a good thing. This mean you're creating room in that area and that frequencies were struggling to breathe there causing some muddiness. 

[Promidi]

11 hours ago, norfolkmastering said:

Do you know how I can get full documentation for this plugin?

On my rig, the Channel Tools help file “Channel_Tools.chm” file is in the same location as the dll itself.

[norfolkmastering]

I got the Channel Tools figured out except for the tool to change the width of each stereo leg.

i understand how width on a stereo signal works but what does changing the width of one leg of a stereo pair do?

[Mr No Name]

it's the same concept if you are standing directly infront of a pair of speakers and then turn your head to one or other side, the signal will appear to decrease in volume in your ear furthest from the speaker. Psychoacoustics.

[sjoens]

On 1/17/2025 at 11:54 AM, sjoens said:

Some sampled/electronic pianos spread the keyboard over the stereo spectrum...

 How many people listen to pianos at either end, tho?  Most piano performances are at right angles to the audience with the lid open so all the sound is projected together... so there is no perceived stereo spread.  Surround sound maybe. 🤔

Drum machines & plugins often do the same... But they all do it to the ear of the player, not the listener, which I think is backwards and one more thing you may want to edit in the final mix.  Easy to do when they're recorded on separate L&R tracks.

Edited yesterday at 09:00 AM by sjoens

[sjoens]

On 1/17/2025 at 11:49 PM, norfolkmastering said:

what does changing the width of one leg of a stereo pair do?

Widens and thins only that channel while changing the stereo center.  Try this: Leave the left channel far left and extend the right channel width out end to end slowly.  Like water, the wider the area the thinner it gets until...

Widening both channels out cancels the whole signal.

[Amberwolf]

I sometimes use ChannelTools' widening/narrowing controls for effect within a song, moving things within the mix via automation, for certain things.     

Sometimes I use the stereo to mono for basslines or subbass, then use it to widen the result out to a full "outside the speakers" pan, so it isn't "stereo" but it's not in the center, but rather separately in each speaker, if that makes sense, to get it out of the way of something else I want to sound in the center. (sometimes for a full song, sometimes just for parts of it). 

I have also used GPan, which was a free dx plugin from gsonic, for similar things, but it doesn't do all the things channeltools does (I think the full gsonic main plugin did but that's not registerable anymore as it was a paid thing and they haven't been around in nearly two decades). But you can still get Gpan full for free here (the installer was archived):

https://web.archive.org/web/20061101230854/http://www.gsonic.com/gse/gse.html

[Glenn Stanton]

i use the channel tool to set widths on stereo instruments - pianos, drums, guitars, backing vocals, etc so i can pan them while still having some width to them. basically a proper side-to-side balance within the overall stereo field is enabled (like in PT with the two pan controls on stereo tracks). another option (and i use this one without the channel tool) is using the surround panner to set the width, depth and position on a 2.0 or 2.1 mix.

Edited yesterday at 06:22 PM by Glenn Stanton