Ability to set multiple outputs for MIDI tracks (maybe CTRL select adds to the current selection)

[Promidi]

It would be handy if we could set multiple outputs for MIDI tracks.

Currently, if we want to route one MIDI track to two or more synths, we have to have an intermediate synth that supports MIDI pass through via the MIDI in MIDI out.   Also, we have to remember to keep the Input Echo enabled for a given destination synth's MIDI track for the routing to stay intact.. 

Probably a routing table would be handy as well so we can see, at a glance, what is routed to what.

[Glenn Stanton]

and then after we get v1 of this, we'll want v2 to some ability to apply filtering rules on the routing table 🙂 

Edited Sunday at 10:27 PM by Glenn Stanton

[Amberwolf]

I'm still surprised that this has never been added to Cakewalk in all this time; I know it's been asked for in the original  pre-bandlab/roland/gibson version(s) more than a few times.... 

 

There are some "gotchas" that can happen from this type of thing; for instance if you actually use the bank/patch controls in a track (I never do these days) all the synths will be set to the same one which will probably be wrong. 

And if there is any data fed back from the synth (envelope / controller names, etc) that conflicts with that sent back from other synths, what does the track do about that? 

 

 

I very commonly stack several synths / etc to build my sounds from, especially when first messing around to get an idea rolling at the start of a project.   ATM I have to have separate MIDI tracks all with echo on, all with record armed, each pointing to the synth it's for, to get that to happen.  

If I could instead have a single source track that feeds all the others, it would greatly ease the setup and start of a new idea.  

(I can always later split out the MIDI that has to be different between the different synths to new tracks, since synths already accept input from multiple midi tracks...we just need to be able to do the opposite as well).

 

 

 

One of the things I loved about the ancient Amiga-based Bars & Pipes was the ability to route anything anywhere; I sometimes used the program not to compose or record but just as a router for live playback of multiple hardware boxes from multiple keyboards without having to buy a bunch of expensive little hardware boxes and cable them all together.  

 

 

 

I don't want to pollute your request, but another potential way to do this with no host software change (thus possibly more likely to happen?): 

( @Viramor because, well, you're our only hope Obi-Vir! :lol: )

FWIW, I'd even accept a workaround that's an MFX (not VST) that would Y-split the midi stream at that point in the MFX chain and provide a copy to whatever midi input you select that's in the dropdown for any midi track. So you could pick any synth hosted in the program the MFX is in, or any hardware / virtual cable port, etc.  

Even if the MFX only has a single Y-output, you could just stack them in the Fx bin of the source midi track to route to multiple different synths.   

This approach could even be used with individual clips on a track to have one feed multiple synths while all the others on the track only feed one, or even to have different clips on the track feed different synths (I would probably not use this approach much, but there are instances I could use that ability). 

Then you can stick filter MFX before or after this Y-Cable MFX   to send only the data you want to each one, if you stack them in the right order.   The Y-Cable MFX doesn't need to have any other function besides the already-probably-complicated one described. 

 

[Glenn Stanton]

one could imagine that the routing to several synths could be notes or controls. or each synth might have a MIDI track for controlling while listening to the overall set of notes, or vice versa... the ability to send several synths articulations or keyswitches might be handy even if they're playing separate notes (e.g. an orchestral part with trilling/vibratos across several instruments).

however, v1 should probably just share all for all instruments "subscribing" to MIDI source. v2 - filtering rules, v3 - combining MIDI (ala patch point?) to allow separate streams of MIDI to provide notes and controls...

[JnTuneTech]

From my experience,, the suggestion of MIDI FX would be the most likely route to satisfying much of these types of discussions, rather than something provided by the DAW. As it stands, Cakewalk provides both multiple MIDI input selection of a hardware port (live routing to multiple plugins) as described here earlier, as well as the ability to duplicate an existing (recorded) MIDI track and have each duplicate linked to the original notes - data stream.

Going much farther than that would indeed be getting into higher levels of complication. I am remembering this also as I look over some of my ancient MIDI mixer hardware, which was often a PITA back in the day. Every multi-instrument scenario has so many dependencies & differing needs. Routing MIDI can be much more complicated than just recording a track, and then outputting it, and even both of those options have their own logic to design.

I keep planning at looking into some of the MIDI FX options that are out there, but my memories of wrestling with my "simple" MOTU Micro Express sort of douse the enthusiasm! -But hopefully that's just me. One supposes maybe there could even be a "simple" MIDI routing & mapping utility of sorts baked into the DAW, though the devil is in the details!

[David Baay]

All that's needed initially is a one-to-many patch point solution, like audio patch points, where you would output a MIDI track to the patch point and it would appear as an Input for other MIDI and Instrument tracks. Eventually MIDI 'Sends' could be implemented for additional flexibility but that's not essential. CodFN42's MIDIChFilter fits the bill but forces you to have a dummy  synth track assigned to its output which partially defeats the purpose of having fewer tracks to deal with (though it can be hidden). It also adds another plugin to your synth rack that could otherwise be invisible if the feature were built-in. And I've recently discovered an issue with using MIDIChFilter in Project Templates that makes it not an ideal workaround. I've asked the Bakers to look into this as it could cause problems with other MIDI OUT-capable VSTs.

Edited 20 hours ago by David Baay

[Amberwolf]

11 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

ancient MIDI mixer hardware

Like the MOTU MM7s? (have one sitting around that I don't use anymore because the very ancient laptop I used *just* for that with a Studioware panel in a very ancient CWPA version (6?  8?) died years back, so I didn't have a way to easily control the mixer, with no hardware controls available for it's functions. 

 

Or do you mean something like the Studio128X (have that too) to "mix" and route actual MIDI data?

[JnTuneTech]

1 hour ago, Amberwolf said:

Or do you mean something like the Studio128X (have that too) to "mix" and route actual MIDI data?

Well, I don't know the capabilities of that device, but the one I used has USB connectivity, which among other things, allows for (messing) setting up certain MIDI routing matrices and uploading them to the device, which holds several configurations you can access with a physical button. -Never worked as I expected though, except for very simple patching. -It does also have SMPTE encoding capabilities, that I never used, but interesting.

Really, if patching MIDI was as simple as a one-to-many scenario, then of course you could easily lump it in with audio patching. But, it is not. Rarely is MIDI just one stream like audio.

[Amberwolf]

Sorry for the continued OT below:

26 minutes ago, JnTuneTech said:

Well, I don't know the capabilities of that device, but the one I used has USB connectivity, which among other things, allows for (messing) setting up certain MIDI routing matrices and uploading them to the device, which holds several configurations you can access with a physical button. -Never worked as I expected though, except for very simple patching. -It does also have SMPTE encoding capabilities, that I never used, but interesting.

 

Same idea, just used the older DB9 serial port instead of USB.  Some time after I lost access to use my "beloved" Bars & Pipes, I got that for cheap used, and it was how I connected up all my hardware MIDI gear to play it together (including the MM7s and an Alesis Midiverb3 for effects).   

 

 

It would be kinda nice to have an MFX that would allow this sort of thing, where an instance of a "patch" MFX goes into the bin of each track you want to use it with, that creates a "virtual MIDI port".    Double clicking on any of those brings you to a GUI window for the "bay" that is common to all of the instances, that is really just the UI into the settings for the whole patchbay.   It could be visually designed something like Kxproject's DSP view, or the module view in VSTHost by Herman Seib, where a box appears for every MIDI port both in and out, and you drag cables from each thing you want to connect to the thing you want to connect it to.   

Each box representing one of the Patch MFX would have the options for it's channel setting(s), so you could pick a channel or leave it so it passes all 16.  (or have tickboxes to allow multi-selections).   Could be done for the output boxes  too, but not necessarily needed since you can filter the channels at hte inputs to the midi tracks if you're feeding htose, or stick an MFX filter in if you're feeding synths that don't suport that.  (see below)

Ideally the MFX would itself have fx bins in each of the ports' boxes to hold sub-MFX, if that's possible, so you can filter any patch any way you need to (without the bay actually needing to do anything but the routing, so it is not nearly as complex to create).   Might want to disallow inserting the Patch MFX itself so you don't accidentally create feedback loops.  

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, JnTuneTech said:

Really, if patching MIDI was as simple as a one-to-many scenario, then of course you could easily lump it in with audio patching. But, it is not. Rarely is MIDI just one stream like audio.

That's always the problem with control information (which is what all MIDI is), in any system / environment.  It's one of the (many) issues I am dealing with in trying to work out the computing / processing of sensor data in my Snuggles The Wolf emotional support robot project....

https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/robotics-project-snuggles-the-wolf.122280/

Edited 17 hours ago by Amberwolf

[David Baay]

2 hours ago, Amberwolf said:

Or do you mean something like the Studio128X (have that too) to "mix" and route actual MIDI data?

I have a first-generation MOTU MIDI Express XT that still works fine, but I replaced it with a MioXL because it was slow (MIDI RTL ~11ms). The MOTU had fairly basic routing capability and was not hard to master. The mioXL can host USB and LAN connections as well as MIDI DIN, configured by an app, and I had to write an extensive 'usage' doc for myself to translate the manual into terminology and that made sense to me and keep track of the configuration. The problem with hardware solutions is that the project then becomes dependent on the hardware being available and configured correctly and that can fall apart when you migrate to a new machine or add some other hardware to your system, but they are a necessary evil if you use old hardware synths and controllers with only DIN connectors.

Edited 17 hours ago by David Baay

[Base 57]

32 minutes ago, David Baay said:

I replaced it with a MioXL

I also have one of those and I love it. It can handle all of the MIDI routing and filtering that I need.

However, everything you wrote after the part I quoted is exactly right. Suggesting that someone use it as a solution for their MIDI problems is just daring them to jump down a rabbit hole.

[Promidi]

If this was ever implemented, one criteria I am hoping for,  is that we do not have to rely on any Input Echo to be enabled for the routing to stay intact.

This is the way it works for a MIDI track that is routed to a synth track.  My request is to allow multiple synths to be selected in the MIDI track output drop down.

[User 905133]

I didn't post the following earlier for fear of impinging on a decent feature request.  With all the posts since (and because the original polite request was made by @Promidi who--from what I have observed--is not adverse to polite discussions made with respect), here goes:

Quote

Sounds good for software synths, esp. non-multitimbral soft synths. I just hope when its implemented, it doesn't mess up old school setups (hardware midi gear). 

[David Baay]

3 hours ago, Promidi said:

My request is to allow multiple synths to be selected in the MIDI track output drop down.

I see where you're coming from but I think track-to-track routing with a patch point model makes more sense for consistency with the way audio distribution works, and because it means each synth would have a MIDI track (or MIDI half of an Instrument track) in between it and the source that can be used for synth-specific Velocity and Time Offsets, MIDI volume and pan contro/automationl, MFX inserts, additional MIDI events, etc. And regarding Input Echo, this gives you the option of interrupting MIDI to one of the synths without disconnecting it.