The inexplicable wretchedness of trying to use the drum pane

[Starship Krupa]

On 10/26/2024 at 5:56 PM, Base 57 said:

Be back in studio next week. I will try to help more then. 

Meanwhile, some kind of voodoo dance may be more effective....

I'll give credit where it's due and say that it's been quite a long time since I've had to sacrifice a chicken to Cakewalk's MIDI routing.

You know the scenario, where a MIDI track and a synth track are happily joined and cooperating, but then....something changes and the synth stops producing sound. You check everything, all the inputs and outputs are set correctly, nothing solo'd, nothing muted, lights on the MIDI track indicate that data is flowing, yet somehow no sound is being produced.

Then you start Trying Things, and eventually some combination of saving/deleting/exiting/reloading/reinserting the project/track/computer makes it start producing sound again.

The sound comes back as mysteriously as it went away. There was a time in the past where you would try to retrace the steps that led to the dysfunction, in the hope of avoiding the situation in the future, but it is now as impossible to break as it was to fix.

All you can do is Save As and thank the spirits that control such things for allowing you to continue.

Anyway, I'm holding you to your earlier pledge to help more when you were back in the studio, assuming you are now back in the studio.

How do I get my spiffy diamond drum editing grid without having to piddle around with forcing it to use Channel 10 or some such?

[David Baay]

8 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

You know the scenario, where a MIDI track and a synth track are happily joined and cooperating, but then....something changes and the synth stops producing sound.

This could actually be related to problems you're having with drum maps in some cases. If you set a MIDI Output to a drum map and subsequently delete the map from the project (e.g. because it' not working as expected) without first deliberately reassigning the MIDI Output, there's no guarantee that it will re-route to the original synth. IIRC, it will default to the first available port, be it a hardware OUT or some other soft synth.

[Starship Krupa]

6 hours ago, David Baay said:

This could actually be related to problems you're having with drum maps in some cases.

Nah, once I get the drum pane set up, it tends to keep going okay.

The problem isn't getting sound to come out, it's getting a drum grid with note names on the left. And I don't use the note remapping feature for any synth that's not a drum machine.

You're thinking in terms of "he's having trouble with drum maps." The "map" part of the feature is the part that actually works for me. Remapping controllers to different MIDI note numbers. Nice feature. A bit clunky, but it works solidly.

The feature that tends to fail miserably is displaying the drum pane with the names of the notes on the left.

They are two different aspects of "drum maps." Note mapping and drum grid editing. One works fairly well, the other one is frankly such a mess that even veteran, savvy Cakewalk users have given up on it. How many people chime in to say that the drum grid works just fine for them vs. how many say that they use Instrument Definitions or just memorize the note locations on their MIDI controller? I myself have a strip of board tape on my keyboard controller with the GM note numbers written on it.

Which I submit is a less common goal than wanting to edit drums on a nice compact grid with note names on the left.

One good thing is that XLN just issued a free upgrade to Addictive Drums 2 that makes accessing its own internal MIDI mapping more inviting, so I may be able to just use an extended GM mapping with AD2. Or, since they've made their own drum editing grid more inviting, I may get more into editing patterns with that.

For AD2 users: this upgrade is a must, it has so many new features and such an extensive UI update that it could have been called Addictive Drums 3 and been a paid upgrade. It functions as a great preview of things to come when AD3 ships.

[David Baay]

17 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

You're thinking in terms of "he's having trouble with drum maps." The "map" part of the feature is the part that actually works for me.

No, I was just responding to your post about unexpectedly silent tracks and thinking that if any part of a Drum Map wasn't working as expected, you might  remove it without re-directing the track output first - a simple oversight that could lead to unexpected silence. Thought I'd mention it accordingly.

[Base 57]

On 11/3/2024 at 10:44 AM, Starship Krupa said:

I'm holding you to your earlier pledge to help

I spent several hours experimenting with Drum Maps and the Drum Pane. But...

 

18 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

They are two different aspects of "drum maps." Note mapping and drum grid editing. One works fairly well, the other one is frankly such a mess that even veteran, savvy Cakewalk users have given up on it. How many people chime in to say that the drum grid works just fine for them vs. how many say that

I couldn't make it not work.

At a loss to explain how it always works for me and rarely works for you or some others, I was going to blame it on the inexplicable differences in the way different people perceive software. For example, V Vocal. Some people loved it and hated when Cakewalk replaced it with Melodyne. I was the opposite. I couldn't get my head around V Vocal at all. But I hardly had to touch the documentation to use Melodyne.

So last night I spent a couple more hours screwing around with this and had a Homer Simpson head slap moment....

Two things

01. If your Drum Pane is empty, then your active Drum Map is also empty.

02. When you open the Drum Map Manager it always opens the first Map in the project, not the map assigned to the current track.

Here is a short experiment to demonstrate how this is supposed to work. Keep in mind that a Drum Map does not care what synth(s) or Port(s) it routes to, and to demonstrate this we won't use any at all.

First, create a New Empty Project and add a single Midi Track to it. From that tracks output dropdown, select Drum Map Manager

   At the top of the Manager, click on New. Then at the bottom, click OK

Next, change the track output to the Drum Map you just created (DM1). Then open the PRV. If the PRV shows the keyboard, then click its View dropdown and select Show/Hide Drum Pane.

That Drum Pane will be empty because the Map is empty.

Next, go back to the Track Output Dropdown and re-select Drum Map Manager.

  In the middle of the manager, under "Settings for DM1", Click on the New button a couple of times. You will see the added notes populate the open Drum Pane.

  Go back to the top of the Manager and click on New under Drum Maps Used in Current Project. Then at the bottom click on OK to close the Manager.

Next, go to the Track Output Dropdown and select the 2nd Drum Map (DM2). The Drum Pane in the PRV will again be empty (because the Map is empty).

Next, create a new Midi Track and assign its output to DM1. The Drum Pane will no longer be empty.

Now the output of Track 1 is assigned to DM-2, and the output of Track 2 is assigned to DM-1. Click back and forth between them and you will notice:

The Drum Pane is always going to display the "Current" track regardless of Selection.

Go to the output of Track 1 (DM-2) and again select Drum Map Manager.

Notice that it displays the settings for DM-1, not the map assigned to the track, DM-2. 

This, I believe, could be the source of confusion for some users. It is not illogical to assume the Manager would display the settings for the map used in the track you opened it from.

There are two other things I want to point out before closing this tldr.

Any time you edit a drum map, save it as a preset with a name that will put it at the top of the list (think numbers). 

And you can change the output port of all the notes in a map at once by holding down Cntrl-Shift while making the selection.

I hope this little experiment helps but as always, YMMV.

 

 

 

 

 

[David Baay]

19 hours ago, Base 57 said:

tldr

This is all more or less useful stuff to know about how the Drum Map Manager works, but the steps are kind of a recipe for how not to do things.

In order to use an existing/built-in map with a known drum synth, all you should have to do is:

- Add the synth with an associated MIDI track (or as one or more Instrument tracks).

- Click the Ouput selector of the MIDI track (on the MIDI tab of the Inspector for Instrument tracks), choose New Drum Map, and select the relevant map. You can use quick-grouping to assign the Ouputs of all Instrument-per-Output tracks in one go if applicable.

- Double-click in the clips pane of the MIDI/Instrument track to open the PRV.

- It should open with the Drum Pane and kit piece names showing.

- Click a kit piece name and you should hear it; only if this isn't working for some reason do you need to go to the Drum Map Manager and modify the Output port and/or channel to match the synth. This should not be necessary most of the time.

That's five steps, but only the second and third are the actual process of "adding" a drum map to a project and opening the Drum Pane. 90% of the time, it should be that simple.

[Terry Kelley]

On 11/3/2024 at 8:44 AM, Starship Krupa said:

I'll give credit where it's due and say that it's been quite a long time since I've had to sacrifice a chicken to Cakewalk's MIDI routing.

You know the scenario, where a MIDI track and a synth track are happily joined and cooperating, but then....something changes and the synth stops producing sound. You check everything, all the inputs and outputs are set correctly, nothing solo'd, nothing muted, lights on the MIDI track indicate that data is flowing, yet somehow no sound is being produced.

Then you start Trying Things, and eventually some combination of saving/deleting/exiting/reloading/reinserting the project/track/computer makes it start producing sound again.

...

I see this often. My only solution is to shutdown Cakewalk and restart it. It will always work.

[Base 57]

2 hours ago, David Baay said:

all more or less useful stuff to know about how the Drum Map Manager works, but the steps are kind of a recipe for how not to do things.

Clearly my lack of communication skills caused you to miss the point.

@Starship Krupa stated very clearly that he understands how to load, create and edit Drum Maps. However, he cannot get them to display in the Drum Pane.

The steps I outlined above were not meant to be a tutorial in using Drum Maps; but a simple experiment to demonstrate that the Drum Pane will always display the contents of the current Drum Map.

To reiterate; If the Drum Pane is empty, then the output of the Current Track is either set to an empty Drum Map or it is not set to a Drum Map at all.

I apologize that I lack the ability to communicate this more clearly. The experiment I posted above doesn't take two minutes to actually do and a video would demonstrate this very well. Sadly, video is not part of my current trick bag.

[mettelus]

20 minutes ago, Base 57 said:

The steps I outlined above were not meant to be a tutorial in using Drum Maps; but a simple experiment to demonstrate that the Drum Pane will always display the contents of the current Drum Map.

I interpreted it as you intended; more to demonstrate the idiosyncrasies that may have put the OP in a tailspin (especially the #2 you included).

[David Baay]

19 hours ago, Base 57 said:

To reiterate; If the Drum Pane is empty, then the output of the Current Track is either set to an empty Drum Map or it is not set to a Drum Map at all.

I apologize that I lack the ability to communicate this more clearly. The experiment I posted above doesn't take two minutes to actually do and a video would demonstrate this very well. Sadly, video is not part of my current trick bag.

I understood what you were doing, but was concerned that someone finding this post might take it to be a tutorial on the standard operating procedure for invoking a drum map.  The introduction suggested that the first step is to open the Drum Map Manager, and I suspect that's exactly how a lot of users get into trouble. I'm saying, "Don't open the Manager unless you have to".  If you just use the Output assignment of the track to pick an exisiting map directly, there's no chance of invoking an empty map, and it will just work with no fuss most of the time.

 

[Base 57]

5 hours ago, David Baay said:

If you just use the Output assignment of the track to pick an exisiting map directly, there's no chance of invoking an empty map

This is a valid point.

However, you can use the scroll wheel to select a preset in the Map Manager. You have to click on the down arrow to roll down the preset list from the New Map dropdown. And that list is Looooooong.

[David Baay]

1 hour ago, Base 57 said:

And that list is Looooooong.

Yeah, I didn't want to get too far into the weeds, but I maintain a set of content folders separate from what Cakewalk installs, and the Drum Maps folder contains only maps that I actually use.

Edited November 6 by David Baay

[Starship Krupa]

On 10/26/2024 at 8:11 PM, David Baay said:

I just loaded the AD2 drum map and did not have any issues; just make sure to have the instrument loaded before instantiating the map in order for the output port to default correctly. The page where the map is shared also has project and track templates that will take care of the output assignments and speed the setup of multitrack outputs:

I just tried it again and this time it worked just like it's supposed to, with the usual exception that I had to open the Drum Map Manager and set all of the outputs to route to the Addictive Drums 2 instrument rather than my Saffire Pro's MIDI in port. I've always had to do that anyway, and it's a trivial procedure with a good success rate. That is, it's successful at getting the controller's notes mapped to the soft synth's sounds.

So I think what I'll do going forward is, rather than having my heart set on using the drum pane with Addictive Drums 2, I'll just try it once at the start of the project, and if it doesn't work, fall back to using the keyboard view with the AD2.INS definitions. Then if that doesn't work, I'll fall back to figuring out where the instruments are on the piano keyboard with a bit of educated trial and error. And however I end up editing my drum track is how I will edit my drum track.

The idea is that while using the drum pane is my first choice, it's not guaranteed that it will work on any given attempt. So rather than letting the failure blow the mood, I'll be ready with a backup plan and then a failsafe in case the backup plan doesn't work. So at least sometimes I'll be able to work in my preferred view. When I can't I can't, no sense getting my knickers in a wad over something that's out of my control.

My distress came from believing that I can get it to work reliably if I just follow the correct steps, but observed time after time that this belief was not true. If I just let go of that assumption, I'll be fine. After all, if the drink I like best at my favorite restaurant is iced tea, and I go there and they happen to be out of iced tea, I don't let it ruin the entire meal. Sometimes the drum grid fails to display correctly, and that's okay. If today's a day when it works, well, super. If not, I can still edit drums.

If the drum pane works, it usually keeps working, so that's not a worry.

[aleo]

I only worked with Drum Maps on a few experimental projects when I was using CbB, but they did work.  I hadn't gotten around to trying Drum Maps in Sonar, but inspired by the lively discussions in this thread,  I decided to create a test project using Session Drummer (included in Sonar) and build the project following David's instructions. 

At Step 2, I found two choices for a Session Drummer Map on the list:  Session Drummer 2 and Session Drummer 2 Default.  I selected Session Drummer 2 then completed Steps 3 and 4.  The names of the various drum kit pieces do appear on the left side of PRV, but it is not the Drum Map pane.  You see a plane, white background with the names abbreviated to the point where they are difficult to read and interpret, and there are no columns for Note In, Note Out, Mute, or Solo.  Any notes that you record or draw in the PVR grid are named if Show Note Names has been checked and I had no problem editing them.

Next, I created a similar project, but selected Session Drummer 2 Default in the Output selector.  At Step 4 the Drum Map pane appeared (white letters on a medium grey background), but no instrument names were listed--at first.   Scrolling down a way, I discovered one instrument, claves.  I widened the column to about two inches and suddenly all the instruments appeared!  Unlike Drum Map panes in CbB, the kit instrument names in Sonar are not truncated when the column is narrowed, they disappear(!?) as you slide the vertical border line to the left.  The columns for Note In, Note Out, Mute, and Solo are there, but in the PRV grid, notes have no names when Show Note Name has been checked(?).  I didn't have any problems with recording, drawing, or editing notes.

I agree with others in this thread that the Drum Map feature needs to be more intuitive to work with and generally improved.  The two problems mentioned above should be corrected and a thorough explanation of how to create a drum map for both MIDI and Instrument tracks needs to be included in the much-needed Sonar Reference Guide and Off-Line Help which I hope will be coming soon.

[David Baay]

15 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I had to open the Drum Map Manager and set all of the outputs to route to the Addictive Drums 2 instrument rather than my Saffire Pro's MIDI in port.

Try re-saving the map with the corrected port assignments in place. I believe that should stick as the default so long as AD2 is in the project before you assign the map.

[David Baay]

5 hours ago, aleo said:

The names of the various drum kit pieces do appear on the left side of PRV, but it is not the Drum Map pane.  You see a plane, white background with the names abbreviated to the point where they are difficult to read and interpret, and there are no columns for Note In, Note Out, Mute, or Solo.

This is what you get when no map is assigned. Session Drummer has custom note names that are displyed in the PRV by default.

5 hours ago, aleo said:

I widened the column to about two inches and suddenly all the instruments appeared!  Unlike Drum Map panes in CbB, the kit instrument names in Sonar are not truncated when the column is narrowed, they disappear(!?) as you slide the vertical border line to the left.

I suspect you started the project from a template that was saved with the names pane minimized. If you were to use the Basic template, the Drum Pane should open with the names showing, but maybe not wide enough to show the complete names. I'm not seeing any difference in behavior between CbB and Sonar when the names pane is narrowed; the names get truncated, then the In and Out note number columns get closed and the name continue to be truncated further until only the mute/solo buttons remain.

[aleo]

David,

Thanks for responding and providing additional info.  I'll run a few more experiments later on this week and get back to you.

[Will.]

On 10/26/2024 at 5:17 PM, Starship Krupa said:

Every couple of years I make an effort, I try, I really do, to use the drum grid.

And every time it ends in failure.

This time I'm attempting to use Addictive Drums 2 to program a beat. I want to use the drum grid, with the names of the notes over on the left hand side.

Step 1 I make a simple instrument track with Addictive Drums on it.

Step 2 I go to Preferences and create a new drum map using the Addictive Drums 2 map I downloaded from the forum (including the step of, for some reason, having to change the Out Port for all of the instruments to Addictive Drums 2 instead of my MIDI interface). I know it sounds weird to say that I create a new drum map using an existing drum map, but I didn't make up this terminology.

Step 3 I set the output of the MIDI strip in Inspector to use the Addictive Drums 2 map I just set up in Preferences. At this point I can play the drums using my MIDI keyboard.

Step 4 I open the Piano Roll View, and I see that under "View," "Show/Hide Drum Pane" is checked.

Yet what I see in my Piano Roll View is an empty grey box on the left, and a space with a set of vertical grid lines to its right. What I do not see is a drum editing grid with the drum note names. This drum track is so far the only MIDI track in the project, and I see in the PRV that it is the selected track.

Not only is the process too many steps to take for what is a simple matter in every other DAW I've used, it's also needlessly obscure, and having to dance back and forth between Track View, Preferences, Inspector, and Piano Roll View is absurd.

And of course, the worst thing about all this hassle is at the end of it, I still didn't achieve my simple goal of setting up a grid for programming drums with the drum names on the left. Any inspiration or even desire I had to work on the drum beat has evaporated.

After almost 9 years of beating my head against this and sharing my frustrations I'm past the point of asking for the process to be improved, streamlined, simplified, or getting any changes whatsoever. All I can do is vent, so I am venting. Here's the fruit of about an hour of hassle:

You are missing one crucial step in order for it to worker each time. In the output port - you need to choose the file that reads "DM1."

Edited November 12 by Will.

[aleo]

I’m returning with the results of my “experiments” with the Drum Map feature in Sonar (v. 2024.09, build 105).  I’m working with the Session Drummer 2 plug-in that comes with Sonar and tested it in four different templates that I use when composing plus the Sonar Basic template, suggested by David, which I hadn’t used before.

In each template I created a simple instrument track for Session Drummer, then going to the Output field on the MIDI console strip selected New Drum Map.  The list that appears offers two choices for Session Drummer; I chose Session Drummer 2 Default because this one gives you the Drum Note Pane (white letters on grey background) when you go to Piano Roll View.

Once you’ve selected a particular kit in the Program field of Session Drummer and have Input Echo on in the Track header, you can play the various pieces in the drum kit, record what you play, and edit what you’ve recorded—no problem, everything worked fine in all five templates.

There are however three annoyances I encountered in every template and every project I created that I wish could be corrected in future versions of Sonar:

 1.   When you slide the vertical border between the Drum Note Pane and the Note Grid to the left, the names of the kit pieces disappear instead of truncating, so if you      see blank lines in the Names column of the Note Pane, slide the border over to the right about three inches and all the names of the various kit pieces should appear.       

2.   Even though Show Note Names has been checked in PRV, no labels appear on the notes in the note grid whether you go with the rectangular notes that allow you to show duration or the short diamond shaped notes.

3.   When you select New Drum Map a very long list of maps appears and it takes quite a while to scroll down the list if you are looking for a map or kit that is near the end of the alphabet.  It would be great to have a vertical thumb on this list to enable faster scrolling.  Also, rather than calling it New Drum Map, I think Select Drum Map or Drum Map Menu would be a lot easier, particularly for new Sonar users, to understand.

Some of these annoyances may have been caused by me setting something up incorrectly or not clicking a on the right item; if so, I apologize for any confusion this caused, but this is what I observed.

[David Baay]

9 minutes ago, aleo said:

When you slide the vertical border between the Drum Note Pane and the Note Grid to the left, the names of the kit pieces disappear instead of truncating, so if you

Someone mentioned that happening in another thread and I could not repro. Sonar truncated the names just like CbB and would then close the In/Out note number columns and continue truncating the names until only the M/S buttons were left.

16 minutes ago, aleo said:

2.   Even though Show Note Names has been checked in PRV, no labels appear on the notes in the note grid whether you go with the rectangular notes that allow you to show duration or the short diamond shaped notes.

Not sure what you're saying here. If a drum map is assigned, nothing will show up in the regular notes pane for that track - neither names nor notes. If no drum is assigned, it's up to the instrument to be programmed with custom note names for Sonar to display. Session Drummer has them, but  lot of instruments don't. I'm not sure whether this is part of the VST spec or some proprietary method used only in CW instruments.

21 minutes ago, aleo said:

3.   When you select New Drum Map a very long list of maps appears and it takes quite a while to scroll down the list if you are looking for a map or kit that is near the end of the alphabet.  It would be great to have a vertical thumb on this list to enable faster scrolling.  Also, rather than calling it New Drum Map, I think Select Drum Map or Drum Map Menu would be a lot easier, particularly for new Sonar users, to understand.

You can navigate quickly to the relevant section of the list by hitting the first letter of the map name. I mentioned earlier that I keep all my Cakewalk Content in a separate directory that installers won't overwrite (and shared by all versions of CW) and cull all the unused maps from the Drum Maps folder so the list is more manageable. I have no real problem with changing to 'Select Drum Map' except that it might momentarily cause some confusion among longtime users. And, technically, you're adding the drum map to the project and to the Ouput pick list) so I think '"Add Drum Map" would be more accurate.