Seems there's no plans for a GM default Player?

[Steven Philips]

13 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

It's only a warning - nothing prevents you from using ASIO4ALL but why anyone would want to do this is a mystery.

What?  Using ASIO4ALL?  Simple, if you can prove that MME is 0 latency, then I'll use it, but ASIO bypasses windows sound drivers and talks directly to the sound hardware reducing latency, and I can prove this by creating 8 tracks of audio, then applying mastering VST's to the main mix, and some other effects VST's to the instrument tracks, and eventually when you play this, it will stutter using MME, but when I switch to ASIO4ALL, no stutter and no high CPU usage, so, yeah ASIO is far better than MME.

I've used ASIO for a full band recording, using 15 tracks, and various VST effects on the mic'd drums, EQ's, etc etc, and the CPU was around 43% and the entire mix played flawlessly with no dropouts, but, change to MME, and immediately, the audio engine drops out.

I always suggest using ASIO.

[mettelus]

On 9/20/2024 at 11:27 AM, Sock Monkey said:

But Sonar doesn't have a system in place to make this a default player when you open a Midi file in the way the TTS-1 worked. 

This is the crux of the issue. TTS-1 is hard coded for this functionality so there are no preference options to change that behavior by the user. There is also the mapping issue of what instruments go to which patches, but that could also be user/community created similar to a drum map now.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

24 minutes ago, Steven Philips said:

What?  Using ASIO4ALL?  Simple, if you can prove that MME is 0 latency, then I'll use it, but ASIO bypasses windows sound drivers and talks directly to the sound hardware reducing latency, and I can prove this by creating 8 tracks of audio, then applying mastering VST's to the main mix, and some other effects VST's to the instrument tracks, and eventually when you play this, it will stutter using MME, but when I switch to ASIO4ALL, no stutter and no high CPU usage, so, yeah ASIO is far better than MME.

I've used ASIO for a full band recording, using 15 tracks, and various VST effects on the mic'd drums, EQ's, etc etc, and the CPU was around 43% and the entire mix played flawlessly with no dropouts, but, change to MME, and immediately, the audio engine drops out.

I always suggest using ASIO.

ASIO is not the same as ASIO4ALL

I would ALWAYS recommend using ASIO over the piece of junk known as ASIO4ALL as it's not ASIO - it's just a wrapper to fool Windows into thinking it is a fully compliant ASIO driver. It isn't. And that's why the warning pops up in Cakewalk/Sonar.

[Steven Philips]

8 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

ASIO is not the same as ASIO4ALL

I would ALWAYS recommend using ASIO over the piece of junk known as ASIO4ALL as it's not ASIO - it's just a wrapper to fool Windows into thinking it is a fully compliant ASIO driver. It isn't. And that's why the warning pops up in Cakewalk/Sonar.

Being as there is no ASIO for windows except ASIO4ALL, and any ASIO drivers that are available, are bundled with either horrendously priced commercial software, or software that you're forced to download just for the ASIO drivers even though you're not going to use the software, one such piece of software is FL Studio, it comes with ASIO_FL but to use it, I would have no option but to install FL Studio even though I won't be using it, and that's why I use ASIO4ALL, there is NO freeware ASIO drivers for windows.

If you were to do a Google search for 'Freeware ASIO drivers for windows' the only results you'll see are ASIO4ALL or FlexASIO which is the same as ASIO4ALL but uses a complex configuration file.

Edited September 22 by Steven Philips

[Bristol_Jonesey]

If you have a reasonably well spec'ed interface it will come with its own ASIO driver.

I don't think any of us have had to hunt for Windows ASIO drivers

[pwallie]

1 hour ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

If you have a reasonably well spec'ed interface it will come with its own ASIO driver.

but that's the issue - most hobbyists don't, and use the onboard realtek, for which asio4all is a great solution, cakewalk/sonar/whatevertheyrecallingitnow is the only daw in my experience that doesn't work well with asio4all, mark mccloud explained why recently (it opens/exposes all wdm ports or something, that cw/snr doesn't like), hence the warning from the the app

i've said it before, i don't understand why they're (cw/bl) not prioritising cw/snr working nicely with this (fake) asio driver, as the vast majority of bandlab users (young people using laptops) will be using it, my guess is that there's some ancient code that would take a big refactoring to do so, and things like xsampler are higher prio because it's more sellable for marketing, business is as business does

in summary, i've had nothing but success over many years with asio4all for the realtek chipset in mulitple daws, cw/snr being the only one that apparently has issues that i've never personally experienced 🤷‍♀️

/goodluck

 

[mettelus]

There are several stand-alone apps that were made before WASAPI came into play (Melodyne was one of them) that only have two options... ASIO and MME. ASIO4ALL is simply a WDM wrapper, and as mentioned above if using onboard audio, that gives the option to use a much lower latency than MME, especially for instruments. Unless recording audio, the RealTek chip is perfectly fine for most applications and boils down to what it is driving (headphones for many). There are situations for me personally that I prefer driving a surround system to create, which is something my audio interface is incapable of, but the RealTek chip most certainly is.

[Sock Monkey]

Thank you for all going totally going off topic. 

I never got my answer. So I'm going with they have no plans. The uncounted silent users who depended on Cakewalk for it's GM midi features probably are OK because they have the old versions still. I don't think new Sonar has many new users. Next most certainly doesn't,  but at least it can play a GM midi file. 

[mettelus]

8 minutes ago, Sock Monkey said:

I never got my answer. So I'm going with they have no plans.

This could be a fair assessment, reason being that if it remains hard-coded it would have to use a common player that contains enough instruments to map the MIDI file. If opened up to users to select a "default player" then it would most likely fall back on the user to make that instrument map. There has been no official response that I am aware of as to future intent, so anything "non-official" here is just speculation rather than an answer.

[Starship Krupa]

7 hours ago, pwalpwal said:

but that's the issue - most hobbyists don't, and use the onboard realtek, for which asio4all is a great solution, cakewalk/sonar/whatevertheyrecallingitnow is the only daw in my experience that doesn't work well with asio4all, mark mccloud explained why recently (it opens/exposes all wdm ports or something, that cw/snr doesn't like), hence the warning from the the app

i've said it before, i don't understand why they're (cw/bl) not prioritising cw/snr working nicely with this (fake) asio driver, as the vast majority of bandlab users (young people using laptops) will be using it

ASIOALL is becoming synonymous with "misinformation."

For use with Cakewalk software, there is no reason whatsoever to use ASIO4ALL, simply because Cakewalk's products work great with WASAPI, which offers at least the same low latency performance as ASIO4ALL. It can do even better if you use WASAPI Exclusive.

I don't know what the full text of Cakewalk's warning message about ASIO4ALL is, but it would be good if it mentioned that what you should use if you don't have a vendor-supplied ASIO driver is WASAPI.

For other audio software that supports ASIO but not WASAPI, such as Ableton Live! and some older MAGIX products, a better solution is ASIO2WASAPI. It is freeware, regardless of whether Google shows results for it.

Even if you use ASIO4ALL with Cakewalk/Sonar/Next because you read that ASIO is better than WASAPI and you don't grasp that the writer meant that a native ASIO driver (as supplied by your interface's vendor) is better than WASAPI, ASIO2WASAPI is still a better solution than ASIO4ALL. Cakewalk/Sonar won't complain about it and you'll get the same good performance and sound quality of WASAPI while still "using ASIO because it's better than WASAPI."

I know that there are people who contend that WASAPI doesn't work on their system and ASIO4ALL does, but WASAPI is specifically designed to work on any Windows version newer than Vista with any Realtek chip. Also the "Intel HD audio" chip that some Intel chipset motherboards came with. If WASAPI doesn't work with your onboard sound CODEC, then something is misconfigured either on your motherboard or in Windows.

[pwallie]

pfft iu duhnno, but for yonks i've used asio4all on a laptop with the realtek chipset with old sonar, ableton live, studio one and  mixxx, and also with the same apps but with an alesis photon x25 also without issue, and the laptop also has the roland/edirol asio driver installed for the ua1000, also without issue

long live asio4all!

[msmcleod]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:52 PM, Steven Philips said:

1.  CbB can only use the MIDI output devices (with exceptions to external devices) that Bandlab specify.  Whereas Sonar X3 can use whatever it detects, currently it's using the Coolsoft Virtual Synth along with the fluidR3 soundfont, that CbB can't use.

As long as its enabled in your MIDI outputs, it should be able to use it - the only exception being the Microsoft GM player, which has some issue with Windows 11.  Check that you're using MME as your MIDI device format (in Prefs->MIDI->Playback and Recording).  The only reason to use UWP is for Bluetooth MIDI support.

On 9/20/2024 at 6:52 PM, Steven Philips said:

2.  CbB gives a warning when trying to use ASIO4ALL, that it may be incompatible, forcing the use of MME that is unstable and has a very high latency, but Sonar X3 uses ASIO4ALL perfectly.

From best to worse performer:  ASIO, WASAPI Exclusive, WASAPI Shared, WDM, MME.

ASIO4ALL is a wrapper around WDM. 

MME is the worst possible choice for audio.  As @Starship Krupa says,  use WASAPI Exclusive for best performance or WASAPI Shared if you need to use your audio device with other apps while Cakewalk/Sonar is running.

On 9/20/2024 at 6:52 PM, Steven Philips said:

3.  CbB is 64 bit, whereas I previously chose to install the 32 bit version of Sonar X3 for compatibility with most of my 32 bit VST's and VSTi's, and find no difference in audio quality between 64 bit and 32 bit unless I use bit rates higher than 96K, which I don't, I use 41.1K.

I wouldn't expect them to be any different  in quality - one is written for a 64bit operating system, the other for a 32 bit operating system.  The DSP code should be identical.

On 9/20/2024 at 6:52 PM, Steven Philips said:

4.  CbB's built in bit bridge is not always compatible with some 32 bit VST's and VSTi's,  whereas I can use jBridge for 64 bit VST's converted to 32 bit and successfully use them in Sonar X3.

BitBridge was primarily used as a stop-gap when operating systems moved to 64 bit, to give plugin developers time to migrate their plugins to 64 bit.  It's a very simple bridge between 32bit & 64bit and last worked properly around Windows XP - over a decade ago.  CbB/Sonar has native integrtion forJBridge if you have it installed - there's no reason to "bridge" your plugins using the JBridger app, you just tell it to use JBridge and it will use it instead of BitBridge.

FWIW I use JBridge for the handful of 32 bit plugins that never got released as 64 bit.  I even use it as a 64 bit to 64 bit bridge for some problem VST's (e.g. Arturia, UJAM).  You will find however,  nowadays that there are far more plugins that are only being released as 64 bit.

 

[Sock Monkey]

I guess I should just change the title of the thread to "Help no sound"!  Geez..

Edited September 23 by Sock Monkey

[Xoo]

18 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I don't know what the full text of Cakewalk's warning message about ASIO4ALL is, but it would be good if it mentioned that what you should use if you don't have a vendor-supplied ASIO driver is WASAPI.

That would make a lot of sense.

However...

On 9/22/2024 at 11:19 AM, pwalpwal said:

i've said it before, i don't understand why they're (cw/bl) not prioritising cw/snr working nicely with this (fake) asio driver, as the vast majority of bandlab users (young people using laptops) will be using it,

This makes more sense in the longer term (and drop MME support at the same time - why have an extra un-needed codepath present which causes its own set of problems?).  Or ship with ASIO2WASAPI if that works better, and then your bases are covered even better (every other DAW I've tried comes with its own ASIO wrapper or ASIO4All, so Sonar should too).

[user 905133]

12 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

I guess I should just change the title of the thread to "Help no sound"!  Geez..

Better yet, just accept that the present is the present, the future has yet to be, and you only have control over what you do (or don't do), not over what others do (or don't do). 

Also, if you really, absolutely want that old school GM sound, I recommend getting a multi-timbral GM/GS sound module.  Seriously!!!!!  I have two Roland M-GS64s (32 MIDI channels each) from the '90s that still work.  For you and others that only want to play MIDI files, why are you so locked into TTS-1?  JMO: If you think that software synths are the only way to go, maybe you should think outside the box.  I have been working on some soft synth performance modalities for a number of years but based on my personal experience for something like old school GM sounds, those romplers will save you from having to complain so much. Really!!!!!  Yes, software synths have a lot of benefits; don't get me wrong, but for playing old school GM sounds, I suggest using old school technology.

[Sock Monkey]

1 hour ago, User 905133 said:

Also, if you really, absolutely want that old school GM sound,

I have no problem,  I have versions  going back to Guitar Studio. I also have 3 other GM players. I have 4 Midi Hardware GM players. 

 Read the OP. This is about how Cakewalk/Sonar used to have a default GM player. It used to play GM files automatically. It could use the TTS-1 or the MS Wavetable to do this. They removed both so new users don't have options. 

All that is needed to fix this would be to have an option ( Like Ardour, Mixcraft & others) to chose a default GM player. 

[user 905133]

1 hour ago, Sock Monkey said:

I have no problem . . . .

 Read the OP. This is about how Cakewalk/Sonar used to have a default GM player. It used to play GM files automatically. It could use the TTS-1 or the MS Wavetable to do this. They removed both so new users don't have options. 

All that is needed to fix this would be to have an option ( Like Ardour, Mixcraft & others) to chose a default GM player. 

I have read the whole thread.  You have been writing for several days as if you do have a problem. 

You have  used charged language.  

If you don't like the suggestion I made, just say thank you and more on. It's really that simple.

Edited September 23 by User 905133
fixed grammatical/editing typo

[user 905133]

3 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

All that is needed to fix this would be to have an option ( Like Ardour, Mixcraft & others) to chose a default GM player. 

Maybe the team already thought of that, might have considered it, and might be working on developing a tool that among other things can play GM sounds which could be made available sometime down the road as an add-on. Maybe they have considered offering this and other add-ons for a charge to help out the people who have never paid anything for CbB (or any of its antecedents). 

I don't know; I don't have any inside information on what I hypothesized here.  From the get go (i.e., from the original post) I have seen your emotionally charged wording.  At first I wondered if you intended to be insulting. 

My children have filled me in on an abbreviation I have seen SJW--Social Justice Warrior (people who ardently argue to rectify what they see as issues for other people).  Maybe we can agree that in this case, you are acting as an SJW-Sonar Justice Warrior (or maybe CbBJW, since you are really talking about the most recent builds of CbB).  😜 

Edited September 23 by User 905133
(4) deleted an errant preposition (3) shortened the post in one place and lengthened it in another place; (2) added "(or any of its antecedents)"; (1) added a couple of missing ")"s

[Byron Dickens]

20 hours ago, pwalpwal said:

pfft iu duhnno, but for yonks i've used asio4all on a laptop with the realtek chipset with old sonar, ableton live, studio one and  mixxx, and also with the same apps but with an alesis photon x25 also without issue, and the laptop also has the roland/edirol asio driver installed for the ua1000, also without issue

long live asio4all!

You should buy a lottery ticket.

[Byron Dickens]

On 9/22/2024 at 12:07 AM, Steven Philips said:

Being as there is no ASIO for windows except ASIO4ALL, and any ASIO drivers that are available, are bundled with either horrendously priced commercial software, or software that you're forced to download just for the ASIO drivers even though you're not going to use the software, one such piece of software is FL Studio, it comes with ASIO_FL but to use it, I would have no option but to install FL Studio even though I won't be using it, and that's why I use ASIO4ALL, there is NO freeware ASIO drivers for windows.

If you were to do a Google search for 'Freeware ASIO drivers for windows' the only results you'll see are ASIO4ALL or FlexASIO which is the same as ASIO4ALL but uses a complex configuration file.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. ASIO drivers are supplied by the manufacturer of any reasonably decent audio interface.