Normalize

[giant ll]

Hello all. I've got a problem. I use the command normalize before extract an mp3 file. I've learned how to use this command from a tutorial about mastering. I've applied this effect, to -10 db normalize to all the single tracks. Before was working very well. I've never had "red" level and the sound was really clean using this. Now with this file, i've applied normalize, 10 db to all tracks but it still continue to go to "red" level, you can see it in that screenshot. What could be the problem?

Thanks in advance.

[Alper Karamahmutoglu]

 "Normalize" is a method typically being used during the mastering phase to adjust the volume appropriate for the finished product formats, for example, -1 dB for CD and -0.1 dB for MP3. Lowering the volume levels of all channels at the same time with "normalize" is also not a way I would personally prefer, instead, I guess the goal can be achieved by applying the "Gain stage" to individual channels before the mixing process.

Edited August 8 by Alper Karamahmutoglu

[giant ll]

Thank you for your answer.  I have a question: if is possible, do you have any good guide about "Gain stage" , in Cakewalk, using just the command included in the Free Version Cakewalk Bandlab? I've found so many guides online... lot of videos.. i watched them withouth results... because all were using external app installed that were "paying version app or applications" " they were not free". Lot of them seemed sponsor to "pay" app external. I have only the basic Free version of Cakewalk and i work whith it. Something really easy and direct if is possibile.

[reginaldStjohn]

Quote

 Now with this file, i've applied normalize, 10 db to all tracks but it still continue to go to "red" level, you can see it in that screenshot. What could be the problem?

2 things I notice. First, you have a plugin, TH3, in the FX.  This takes the audio in the track and effects it. It can be doing anything it wants to the level.  Especially, if you are applying amp or distortion effects. You have to try to adjust the level of the effects output to match the level of the input if you want the loudness about the same.

Second, you have the fader set to 2.8db and the master fader up as well. Reset both of those to 0.0db and and adjust the fx output to about the volume you want without going into the red.

If your volume is too low turn up your speakers.

[giant ll]

13 minutes ago, reginaldStjohn said:

2 things I notice. First, you have a plugin, TH3, in the FX.  This takes the audio in the track and effects it. It can be doing anything it wants to the level.  Especially, if you are applying amp or distortion effects. You have to try to adjust the level of the effects output to match the level of the input if you want the loudness about the same.

 

Ok. I will try to adjust directly the level and gain of the amp simulator and sound in TH3. Probable that could be one problem. If it can be doing anithing it wants to the level, it could "skeep" some regulations that i make in the mixer.

[giant ll]

19 minutes ago, reginaldStjohn said:

 

Second, you have the fader set to 2.8db and the master fader up as well. Reset both of those to 0.0db and and adjust the fx output to about the volume you want without going into the red.

If your volume is too low turn up your speakers.

Ok. I had the master at 2.8db .... and the master fader of the single track at 5.00. That's because i was listening the volume a bit low respect to some commercial video on Youtube. Anyway.. i put bot on 0.0db and put up speakers volume. The wawe form it's not so big.. but i think i could try to find a good middle way

[giant ll]

4 minutes ago, giant ll said:

Ok. I had the master at 2.8db .... and the master fader of the single track at 5.00. That's because i was listening the volume a bit low respect to some commercial video on Youtube. Anyway.. i put bot on 0.0db and put up speakers volume. The wawe form it's not so big.. but i think i could try to find a good middle way

I can't make the wave bigger than this, because the input level was high at limit. higher limit. not red but good.it  was ok. I cannot put higher the input level of the audiocard, because it wuold make noise. I followed the indication of the productor in the select of audio card input level. Testing directly the guitar, in the same way i always made.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

2 things.

First, which track is it you're trying to normalize?

Second, towards the top of the screen where it says Personalize, change it to All and submit another screenshot

[giant ll]

15 minutes ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

Second, towards the top of the screen where it says Personalize, change it to All and submit another screenshot

Sorry, i can't find this command. I have Cakewalk in another language. I try to put Cakewalk in English because if i use it in my language, all commands are different and when we talk i don't see directly them.

Could you indicate me exactly where is this? Thank you.

[57Gregy]

5 minutes ago, giant ll said:

Sorry, i can't find this command. I have Cakewalk in another language. I try to put Cakewalk in English because if i use it in my language, all commands are different and when we talk i don't see directly them.

Could you indicate me exactly where is this? Thank you.

In the BLUE box.

[giant ll]

That's all the project.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

Which track are you trying to normalize?

[giant ll]

19 minutes ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

Which track are you trying to normalize?

All the tracks are recorded with similar level, similar effects and amps. The song is only divided in different parts. Almost all the tracks, in playback, except the first, played with the backing track(track 1) that is only one and for all the song, go to red at the moment. The problem is almost general. I would like to work on all the project. All the song play maximum 2 tracks together, how you can say. Backing and the different solo parts.

[giant ll]

 I 'm thinking also that , how reginaldStjohn told me, the problem could be in the amps. TH3 level. The tracks are really thin, there's no reason to but it can amps all when it read the track. Tomorrow ill try to work on the amps singular regolation off all track effects. Anyway i tried, just for watching the effect of TH3, i tried to disable TH3 in the tracks. The level of playing would be this, with the same settings.

[mettelus]

6 hours ago, giant ll said:

I've applied this effect, to -10 db normalize to all the single tracks.

How many tracks are you talking about here? Every time you double track count (for an identical track), it will add 3dB... 2 tracks = +3dB, 4 tracks = +6dB, 8 tracks = +9dB, etc.

That said, if you pull tracks from a commercial master, and normalization raises gain on tracks, it is (most likely) going to sum over 0dB, since that commercial master is probably right on the threshold. Likewise, if you add something to an existing commercial track, you are also going to add gain (and probably go over). Content you have pulled from a commercial track is best tweaked with faders (per track, not all adjusted the same).

[giant ll]

26 minutes ago, mettelus said:

How many tracks are you talking about here? Every time you double track count (for an identical track), it will add 3dB... 2 tracks = +3dB, 4 tracks = +6dB, 8 tracks = +9dB, etc.

That said, if you pull tracks from a commercial master, and normalization raises gain on tracks, it is (most likely) going to sum over 0dB, since that commercial master is probably right on the threshold. Likewise, if you add something to an existing commercial track, you are also going to add gain (and probably go over). Content you have pulled from a commercial track is best tweaked with faders (per track, not all adjusted the same).

All the project is 8 tracks. Anyway.. the double track count should be limited to 2, because the others plays in a different moment. Only 2 tracks, at the same time plays together. In all the song is like this. There is no double track for identical tracks in this project. I used to make it in other different projects.

[giant ll]

Thanks very much to all for your help. Now i've tried to put just the master level to 0 db, all the other things are like before. I didn't change anything other. The file don't go anymore to "red". It seem ok. The fade of the single tracks are the same. Is at limit because is orange but ok. Lower than this i think should be not an option because the level would be too low. This seem the best solution at the moment.

[Alper Karamahmutoglu]

On 8/8/2024 at 9:20 PM, giant ll said:

Thank you for your answer.  I have a question: if is possible, do you have any good guide about "Gain stage" , in Cakewalk, using just the command included in the Free Version Cakewalk Bandlab? I've found so many guides online... lot of videos.. i watched them withouth results... because all were using external app installed that were "paying version app or applications" " they were not free". Lot of them seemed sponsor to "pay" app external. I have only the basic Free version of Cakewalk and i work whith it. Something really easy and direct if is possibile.

Since you said that you have reviewed online recommendations, I think you are familiar with the "Gain Staging" process. There are some free plugins on the internet that you can get easily, the first thing that comes to mind is "TBP Pro audio Mvmeter". After muting all the effects, max. Gain can be adjusted with the help of this vu meter, personally to prevent clipping and distortion, keeping the level at -13 dB on each individual recorded channel has always worked for me. After completing these processes, when the effects are applied again, I guess, to prevent the clipping it will be useful to adjust the gain level so that it does not exceed -6 dB. after completing the same processes for each channel, then the mixing phase can be started.

Have a nice day! 

Edited August 10 by Alper Karamahmutoglu

[giant ll]

2 hours ago, Alper Karamahmutoglu said:

Since you said that you have reviewed online recommendations, I think you are familiar with the "Gain Staging" process. There is some free plugins on the internet that you can get easily, the first thing that comes to mind is "TBP Pro audio Mvmeter". After muting all the effects, max. Gain can be adjusted with the help of this vu meter, personally to prevent clipping and distortion, keeping the level at -13 dB on each individual recorded channel has always worked for me. After completing these processes, when the effects are applied again, I guess, to prevent the clipping it will be useful to adjust the gain level so that it does not exceed -6 dB. after completing the same processes for each channel, then the mixing phase can be started.

Have a nice day! 

Thank you very much, the plugin is really useful. I've just downloaded and i'm trying this. Just one question: i've tried to use -13db withouth effect, about -6db with effect. I've saved the old version, recorded again all the song in another file and tryed this. The sound is really clean.. but i would need a little bit more powerful. I had to put the volume fo TH5 amp to 5. Before was about 9! Is not now too thin the wave? Probable you were meaning for clean guitar, but an overdrive fusion guitar i would need a little bit more high level? This is an example. I'm just curious because it's the first day that i'm trying to use this plugin. So could be that i didn't understand something. I'll analyze it better in next days.

[Glenn Stanton]

i use the built-in gain control on the audio track. and for each track i set the volume slider to -6 as my starting point, then set the gain to roughly have the signal peak at -12 to -6 depending on the instrument, the frequency band it occupies, and it's role. these feed my busses which are by default set to -3. in general, if i'm careful, my non-limited master ends up around 0db maybe +1 (yellow). 

then i add in my master eq and limiter/maximizer (typically Izotope Ozone 11 EQ + Maximizer) set to -1db peak, and in my Izotope Insight, starting at -16 LUFS without vocals, and then around -14LUFS with vocals, and integrated LUFS around -14.5 to -14. depending on the song i may go to -12 or for something softer -16.

one of the first tools a mastering engineer reaches for? their ears. second, the volume knob. oddly enough, if it's not loud enough, they turn up the volume control🙂

after that, then they may reach for the other tools -- EQ, dynamics, limiting etc to shape it.