Bakers, bread overbacken, or what?

[AxlBrutality]

1 hour ago, Johnbee58 said:

Addressed to the OP;

You're complaining about something that is absolutely free?!  The bakers here have more concern for customer service than many vendors who get $$$$$$$$ for their products.

I never once experienced a bug or issue that I reported to Jessie or Noel that wasn't quickly addressed.  IMHO, these people go above and beyond what they would have to to keep us up and running and making music.  Did you ever ask for tech support?  If not, try it sometime.

Respectfully

John B

Your experience may not mirror that of other users, including myself...and thus isn't any more or less valid than another's.  That's the problem with anecdotal evidence.

Also, just because something is free does not mean that one should not expect a functional product, e.g., the one that was advertised or represented to them.  Especially a product which can obliterate hours of work with a single hang or crash (even with autosave enabled).

Lastly, I'd like to point out that there are many of us who would gladly go back to paying for the product if it would increase the resources available to Noel and the team to get things done in more volume, with more speed, and with fewer problems.

____________________________________________________________________

@Starship Krupa

-I will say that Cakewalk is more stable than it/SPLAT used to be, but it's still, in my experience (and others I know and work with IRL), far more instable than most other major DAWs.  It's still a source of frustration for many of us, and that doesn't help with the program's reputation-rebuilding.

Cakewalk/Sonar has a decade+ history of instability, memory leaks and corruption, etc., so when those issues still hang around for plenty of users...well, it is what it is.

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

The point in telling someone that some procedure or plug-in or other works on my Cakewalk system isn't to somehow "defend" a program that I use to record music with or a corporation whose owners and employees I've never met and who still won't make it so I can turn off that stupid number box at the top of the Aim Assist line. The point (when I say it, anyway) is to give someone who is having trouble a little more info to work with. It may not seem helpful, but knowing that it's not broken on all systems helps with troubleshooting. Then we can ask what's different between your system and mine. Sound driver? Video driver? Anything?

And I totally understand that.  But when users like myself have had some of the same issues for months or even years on multiple machines and configurations, it gets a little frustrating to hear "well it works fine here" and "we need you to do allk the legwork and troubleshooting".

I also know that if a user is particularly frustrated and venting, some of the people that pull out the "well it works fine here" are not necessarily using that as a troubleshooting mechanism.  They're firing back at said user, and that's not fair.

 

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

Well this sounds pretty awful, and when I was reading it my eyes automatically jumped over to see how many posts you have made on here, because you seem well-spoken and all and I was surprised I didn't recognize your handle/avatar. Only 16? Have you brought these plug-in issues up on the public forum? I'd encourage you to do so immediately if you haven't. I've witnessed multiple examples of the developers addressing plug-in issues that were being batted about in the public forum. The squeakier wheels do tend to get the grease, and at the least, people need to know if other people are having problems getting their favorite plug-ins to work with Cakewalk.

Admittedly, I was much more active on the old forums years ago, and am much more of a lurker these days.  However, yes, if a problem gets big enough, I do (and have) run it by here.

Having said that, I much prefer to go straight to tech support. Over the last 16+ years, I've been jaded a bit by the community (as we've kinda discussed)...not just by the attitudes of some of the regulars, but I've also found that the amount of speculation, guesswork, and generally unhelpful and elementary advice far outweighs actual solutions.  I'll admit, however, that visibility to the general public is important for other reasons, and not being more active here may be a bit selfish.

Another factor, though, is that usually when stuff goes wrong for me, it's big.  You, and everyone else, don't want me posting here when I've just lost 3 hours of work on a major project or something.  Lol.  There's a very thin line that separates people like me from people like the OP, which was kindof the point of my original comment and something I was trying to address.

14 hours ago, AxlBrutality said:

I've also not been able to use probably about half of my favorite plugins in Cakewalk for months now.

 

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

Well this sounds pretty awful,

Yea, it is.  A few of them (includingMAutoPitch) actually have the exact same problem, and I've been trying to find or receive a solution for nearly a year.  (And yes, this is one of the ones I have posted about.)  Additionally, communications with customer/tech support have been disjointed and frustrating at times.  So yea, a bit frustrated.  It seems that recently we have begun to make headway on a possible cause, but no resolution as of yet.

Others are recently purchased plugins from fairly established and reputable companies that work fine in other DAWs, but have massive problems in Cakewalk.

Now, keep in mind, I'm not just frustrated with Bandlab/Cakewalk...there are some plugin manufacturers (*cough* JST *cough*) that seem to look down on Sonar/Cakewalk and always have, and don't really prioritize us.  Apparently Cakewalk isn't a "real" DAW to them or something.  JST actually told me this morning " we recommend ProTools, Studio One, Cubase, Reaper, Ableton, and Logic".  I've never had a plugin manufacturer until today straight up tell me I need to permanently switch DAWs because one of their plugins has an issue in cakewalk.  So yea....Cakewalk isn't the only target of my frustration, lol.

Having said that, other plugin companies have much more eloquently suggested that problems are on Cakewalk's end, and it does say something when 5 different manufacturers are pointing at Cakewalk, but you get Noel coming in here saying "nuh uh" or "doubtful" for the 600th time just because he can't reproduce it on his end after an hour and seems to want everyone else...including the end user...to do all the leg work for him.

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

There was one guy, Scott,

Yea, I recall seeing that, and declined to jump in because I saw no point in stirring the pot even more...considering I was basically witnessing the same old nonsense from many users, as we've discussed.  Lol.  I wanted no part of that.

Addressing the whole last part of your comment, here's my problem:  It shouldn't take a bona fide Youtube celebrity of some level to get a problem fixed, and we as users shouldn't have to state our credentials to get priority.

I use Cakewalk on a daily basis, both for personal and professional purposes.  I'm an actual engineer that dropped thousands on an audio education.  I've been with this program in its various iterations for nearly two decades.  And as mentioned, I was somewhat active on the old forums many years ago.  And I have a LOT of time and money invested in this DAW, and I have several friends who until recently were also longtime loyalists.  But I don't usually lead off with any of that in emails to tech support or in posts here, nor do I rant about it in my sigs.  Because conversely to your point, I don't want to be "that guy"....the self-important ***** that wants to swing his weight around to get prioritized.  But it seems  that....or having a Youtube channel...is what gets attention around here these days.  So idk, lol.

With regard to the "freeware" bit...I'll reiterate what I said to a previous commentator:

"just because something is free does not mean that one should not expect a functional product, e.g., the one that was advertised or represented to them.  Especially a product which can obliterate hours of work with a single hang or crash (even with autosave enabled).

Lastly, I'd like to point out that there are many of us who would gladly go back to paying for the product if it would increase the resources available to Noel and the team to get things done in more volume, with more speed, and with fewer problems."

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

I hope we see more of you around here.

I'll never be as active as some of you, and I try not to post if I don't actually have something to say or contribute....I'm one of those "don't pipe up if you don't really have a solution or a really big problem".  Haha.  But if I do choose to stay with Cakewalk, I suppose I will make more of an attempt to speak up here.

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

threatens to take their Behringer C1

Hey now, that mic got me through some tough times early on.  Lmao.  Everybody's gotta start somewhere.

Does threatening to take my Rode NT2A home carry a bit more weight?  Or do I have to own a Neumann for that to work? 

Thanks for the civil discussion, btw.

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by AxlBrutality

[Dare Rihter]

54 minutes ago, Johnbee58 said:

You're complaining about something that is absolutely free?!  The bakers here have more concern for customer service than many vendors who get $$$$$$$$ for their products.

@Johnbee58 You can find all answers in my previous posts  Nothing is for free. Just maybe looks like it is. At the end I invested $5K of my time exploring these annoying bugs, restarts, downloads new versions, retrying, reporting, not getting answers, not getting solutions, more, things going worse obviously because of Bakers attitude: it's free, can be buggy. Professional business world works different. Sad.

But, stupid me, again. A few hundred $ resolved all issues with my music production, never addressed in CW. To be ultimate believer is tricky thing.

Best,

Dare

[Jonathan Sasor]

While I can't speak to everyone's experiences, I can say that the Bakers collectively are very passionate about CbB and we do everything within our power to make it the best possible app it can be. Every app has bugs, that's part of the game with software. If we can identify a problem, we'll fix it (as time/resources allow). Workflow stoppages get our attention first. Our team is not the biggest one on earth though. We wear a lot of hats and juggle a lot of responsibilities.

It becomes slightly more complicated with third party vendors. We try our best to reach out and work with other companies to ensure that plugins work as well as they can. Some companies are more receptive to working with us than others. What's difficult to tell is that sometimes a plugin might have a bug that is only exposed using a given host. Not every host handles plugins exactly the same- there's some wiggle room in how the VST spec from Steinberg is implemented in each case. If a plugin itself is failing in Cakewalk, there might not be much we can do, we can't debug other people's code. That said, if there's something we're doing incorrectly, we will absolutely make every effort to fix that on our end. Sometimes we'll find a problem with how a plugin is operating and reach out to the developer, and not get much in the way of a response. In those cases we can't do much, but we're always open to working other companies.

That said, we try to replicate problems as best we can. A lot of times there's system environmental variables that we can't account for. This is part of why we push updates and hotfixes. When we can identify and reproduce a scenario that's reported, we try to get a fix out as rapidly as we can. The CbB dev team spends a good deal of time working with users to this end. We want the app to work as smoothly as possible for everyone. Sometimes people hit roadblocks, we do our best to avoid that from happening in the first place, but when that happens, we're more than willing to work with end users towards a resolution. Sometimes there's a system configuration issue that needs to  be tweaked. Other times some hardware behaves unexpectedly. Obviously it can be frustrating when you run into a problem, but as with third party vendors, if users are willing to work with us, we'll do everything within our power to get them back on their feet as rapidly as possible. All we ask is for a positive attitude and we'll return in kind and do our best. We're not perfect, no one is. But we're always striving to make improvements wherever possible, and will continue to work with our users both through support and via this forum.

 

[AxlBrutality]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

Some companies are more receptive to working with us than others.

I just want to mention that this is a very frustrating part of it all for many of of us.  I've mentioned it elsewhere, but Cakewalk isn't held in very high regards by some vendors/publishers/plugin devs.  And unfortunately, some of them are pretty big players on the scene, which forces us into a position of doing without some of our favorite plugins, or moving to a much more supported platform, such as Cubase....which we don't necessarily want to do (especially those of us who are longtime users of 10,15,20 years).

1 hour ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

there might not be much we can do, we can't debug other people's code.

My only beef with that is that there have been times in the past where I've got a specific issue happening across several plugins from different companies, and they (the companies) are all pointing the finger at Cakewalk (and indeed, the plugins work in other DAWs on my system)...yet Cakewalk has thrown their hands up and said "not us" or "not something we can fix".  Or the issue has gotten shoveled to the back burner.  It does happen, and that makes me wary of that statement.  I understand it's a valid excuse and that's that's genuinely the situation sometimes, but it's an easy one to fall back on when workloads are heavy or a problem is difficult to track down. And as the end-users, we don't always know the details, so you gotta understand how it looks sometimes.

 

1 hour ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

Our team is not the biggest one on earth though. We wear a lot of hats and juggle a lot of responsibilities.

Personally, as a small business owner and such myself, I recognize that...and do thus give y'all more leeway than some other users do.  It doesn't make things less frustrating on our end, though...so I guess just as you are asking for understanding and patience from us, I'd ask the same of y'all.  When a user has lost hours of work, or can't get a plugin to work that they heavily depend on....they're not gonna be in the best of moods.

Thanks for stopping in and attempting to communicate!

Edited December 4, 2019 by AxlBrutality

[AxlBrutality]

@Jonathan SasorI also want to mention (apologies for the double post, but this is kindof an entirely separate sentiment/thought):

Many years ago, when I was in audio school, ProTools was still the absolute king and was thought to be the only real "professional" option.  Logic was close behind, although it was slightly more limited and geared more towards specific kinds of music production.

Sonar was light years ahead of anyone else in a lot of ways, and I strongly felt that out of everyone, it was next in line and the only real challenger.  I was one of Sonar's biggest champions, and I pushed the program to everyone I knew.  Even through some of its issues, I felt that way until just a few years ago.

And to this day, Sonar/CbB is still, in my opinion, the best combination of ease-of use ("consumer friendly") and capability (for advanced/"power" users).

However, years of mismanagement and poor marketing by various parent companies...along with a history of bugs and instability...relegated Cakewalk to nothing more than an afterthought to most in the industry.  Sometimes, even less than an afterthought.  Now, many plugin manufacturers don't even test their stuff in Cakewalk, and brush off users who have issues in it.

It's sad.  Cakewalk had (and still has) so much potential, but has been steamrolled over by products such as Cubase and, more recently, Studio One (which is gaining a TON of popularity)...and even Reaper.  Support for Cakewalk has all but disappeared...which I'm sure makes y'all's job more difficult, but imagine how some of us longtime loyalists feel.  So of course, we're gonna be incredibly frustrated at times...not getting help from anyone (either by design from plugin companies, or because of a lack of resources on Cakewalk's part).

And I still fear that being a "free" product....bankrolled by Bandlab and subject to its whim and the financial state of its ownership and their other products/cookie jars, has its dangers.  And I'm still concerned for its future and the state of the DAW itself.  I've mentioned it before, but I...like many other users...would have no problem paying for the product to see it flourish.

Edited December 4, 2019 by AxlBrutality

[Dare Rihter]

Hi,

@Jonathan Sasor My eyes are full of tears reading Your post. But 30 years of computer experience, from programming microcontrollers, assembler on PC, Turbo Pascal, Delphi, C#, MySQL, FireBird, Interbase, MSSQL and ORACLE, product manager on the field of in-program compilers including emulating Delphi IDE in some huge ERP to CDO with 40 employees (10 years) tells me more than Your post can do. 

3 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

We try our best to reach out and work with other companies to ensure that plugins work as well as they can

Trying simply isn't enough. Effect is the only matter that counts. Creating bugs is easier than correct them, especially when they are in the wild. And much more expensive as enough in-lab testing.

3 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

What's difficult to tell is that sometimes a plugin might have a bug that is only exposed using a given host.

Of course, You're right. All plugins that works in my freshly bought DAW and not working in CW, have this for You obviously magic characteristics. They do not work OK in CW, and they work like charm in my new DAW. Serioiusly. Not joking. How they do it, ha.... For gods sake, You are developers. Do not cry how hard is programmers life and find solutions. Buy these VSTS and debug with them, and test, test, test, test, test and test before release.

3 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

If a plugin itself is failing in Cakewalk, there might not be much we can do, we can't debug other people's code.

We see that. BandLab can't, other DAW developer obviously can do. Probably You do not program in Microsoft Excel, where I believe debugging isn't possible, I'm almost sure You do in C++ where all these magic impossible tasks are possible. Of course, if You want to. If You have knowledge to do so.

3 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

A lot of times there's system environmental variables that we can't account for.

Yes, sure, my computers ENVIRONMENTAL VARIABLES are guilty for bad design, bad error handling and bad programming practices, that leads to mysterious crashes in CW. But not in other DAWs. Toc toc.

3 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

All we ask is for a positive attitude and we'll return in kind and do our best.

All community compensates Your lack of testing with endless patience IF they ever dig deep enogh to run into the troubles. You as the software provider are the one, that must be step forward with testing techniques to control bug count, not community. 

3 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

Sometimes we'll find a problem with how a plugin is operating and reach out to the developer, and not get much in the way of a response. In those cases we can't do much, but we're always open to working other companies.

Real problems are ALWAYS at the customers, not in Your almost hermetically closed lab. Contact users to see what is wrong to look what is going on, "but it works in our lab" is obviosly not succesful and effective approach. I do not give a shit for response if You solved problem and publish patch for the problem. More frustrating is that You hiding heads into the sand, saying nothing and at the end - doing nothing.

3 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

We're not perfect, no one is.

We know that. You effectivelly show us that painful truth, with quality of Your work (ehm, You are Quality Assurance Manager?). But more perfect developers exists out there obviously. Learn from them. Not how to make political and commercial speaches, but how to solve problems, to be better software provider.   

3 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

But we're always striving to make improvements wherever possible, and will continue to work with our users both through support and via this forum.

I must agree here. CW has enormous potential IMHO. I think this honestly, after years of observing progress, regardles of fact, that I changed my DAW. Work more on the stability, rather than improvements and things will go better. Because when You get popularity of buggy software (and there are signs that some people thinks this way), You'll fight with this forever. And forget, that community will solve Your bugs with endlesly patient support for users like me. You are the one. You gave us free software, so live with that fact. And don't let bad programmers/programming practices stops You. This problem is completelly in Your hands. I think personally Yours, as the quality assurance specialist.

I wish to return to CW. Really. I want to pay for GOOD and STABLE product. I do not believe in free software, without obligations for creators (but, It's free... syndrome) 

Best

Dare

 

[backwoods]

can you list the vsts you're having problems with dave?

[Jesse Jost]

This community's rich mix of voices and perspectives is a great asset, which always feeds into the software in a positive way. While our forums are typically very positive, not every discussion needs to be rose-tinted. Directness and strong perspectives are welcome, and we have a lot of compassion for @Dare Rihter 's (and others') frustrations in situations like these. Don't feel like the Bakers ever need to be coddled. However, I'm afraid this thread has reached a point where it has become counterproductive and emotionally abusive. 

Let's be clear, public forums can be a challenging form of communication! Our community doesn't have very many guidelines, but a critical value for us is that of respect, and a show of mutual respect in a public forum is vital to forward discussion (you can read more about our community guidelines here).

Rest assured everyone on the team wants to get to the bottom of such "mystery" issues. We hate not being able to reproduce errors reported in the field, but I know we'll nail them. This team never fails to to impress me with their relentless pursuit of improving our software and their freakishly supercharged dedication, at all hours, to doing what's best for our users.