Misha Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 Trying to wrap my head around this ridiculously strange Sonar "release" While many threads hint that Bandlab is not interested in us, longtime users... Lets try to understand why they tied Sonar to subscription? Judging by content Bandlab hosts... it seems mainly aimed at more modern - kiddo music. Just think for a moment. Kids who are into beatmaking, EDM and similar music will unlikely to use Cakewalk by choice. Don't get me wrong, Cakewalk is perfectly capable of delivering, but there are sooo many options, and some of these crafted specifically minding those genres (that Bandlab widely represents). Froot Loops (Starter at $99 for perpetual) or even Bitwig - perpetual licenses of light version which were given out for free at one point. Why would a kid sign up for $180 pocket drain? To become "famous"? Social stuff? I don't know (and I don't want to know). But intuition tells me Sonar will not be their decision maker. Maybe a byproduct. So why Bandlab is taking a swing a us, most loyal group? Remains a dark & unhappy mystery. I am confident they will leave Cakewalk by Bandlab alone for at least a year, but without known expiration date, as of now to me it's a dead man walking. I will put my urge of switching DAW on pause for a few months in hope that they either release normal licenses or at least clarify plans for the future of Cakewalk & Sonar. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 (edited) Subscription is continuous revenue. Think “Instant Ink.” It’s not bad idea if you can pull it off and it’s more acceptable to the newer generation. They also offer you fame (which Instant Ink doesn’t.) Edited August 6 by Terry Kelley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeringAmps Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 2 hours ago, Misha said: Lets try to understand why they tied Sonar to subscription You don't think they are simply trying to increase their paid BandLab user base? We are all "members" by virtue of using CbB, but they want to increase the "paid" membership; simple as that IMHO. t 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJH Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 It seems to me that whatever forum I visit Cakewalk is haemorrhaging users everywhere. They seem to be moving to other DAWS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVR PRODUCTIONS Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 I built a crazy new multimedia computer in Dec and am yet to install Bandlab CW even though it is all I have used exclusively for the past few years. I don't want to bloat my computer with something I will not be using in the very near future. I am still debating if I should install temporarily so I can finish some projects up or just start them from scratch in Samplitude Pro X7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookiee Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 Annual updates, if taken every year, are a subscription. But I would like to see some form of guaranteed ownership. Unfortunately many products are doing the subscription route. Even Roland's pay-4-life, requires you maintain an account, all be it free, once you have what you want to keep it authorised. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misha Posted June 20 Author Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, DeeringAmps said: You don't think they are simply trying to increase their paid BandLab user base? That what is bothering me... as I don't understand how is tying Sonar to sub only will help BL. Traditionally Cakewalk was used by a more mature audience, kiddos went different route years ago... FL, Reason, Ableton. Now they are mature boys & girls. I don't know a single person who switched to Cakewalk from those who started recording ~15 years ago. Even those who I personally convinced to get Sonar Home pre 2018, as it was cheap and even free at some point, switched to other DAWs. Point is, likely they will release normal licenses at some point, but why disturb long term followers in such way? From my understanding, most of those who sticked around from pre-2018 don't want a "subscription". (But most are ok Rent-to-own). The only piece of information that was publicly made was Noel mentioning "other" ways they are looking into for obtaining a license. Ball is obviously in BL's court, but it's getting heavier by the day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeringAmps Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, PJH said: They seem to be moving to other DAWS... Best thing that ever happened to S1! 35 minutes ago, TVR PRODUCTIONS said: still debating if I should install If you are comfortable in CbB, install and use. The footprint is small and uninstalling later won’t be an issue. t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 (edited) First we heard that the logistics for retail boxes, etc, etc, were the reason for the delay in a license. It goes on and on. I dare not say anymore. But as John V. explained in a video post it "SEEMS" the language on the Bandlab website says cwbl will continue and even have maintenance updates now and them so for now, for me, this will do. Do I want a sonar License for the New sonar-definitely yes, but I am content with CWBL staying alive................ With CWBL still alive for the foreseeable future my paid Reaper 7.xx and Studio One ( I think I have a lesser version, but not a trial) will just have to wait-hopefully forever for me ? Edited June 20 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB01 Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 Kids prefer using Ableton (at least my lad does for his DJ stuff and so do all his mates). He absolutely hates the Bandlab/ Sonar GUI and he doesn't much like S1 either. FWIW, I can't make head nor tail of Ableton so must be a generational thing. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookiee Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, AndyB01 said: Kids prefer using Ableton (at least my lad does for his DJ stuff and so do all his mates). He absolutely hates the Bandlab/ Sonar GUI and he doesn't much like S1 either. FWIW, I can't make head nor tail of Ableton so must be a generational thing. Andy You are old school linear, like using a tapedeck. ? Ableton is very much about building loops that work together. I watch a regular YouTube chap called Synth Seeker who uses Ableton to build Berlin style tunes. Try giving him a view Andy he shows how he builds his music in Ableton. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB01 Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 33 minutes ago, Wookiee said: You are old school linear, like using a tapedeck. ? You nailed me in a single sentence. ? I'll follow your recommendation - see if I can open my mind a little... I make no promises however 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misha Posted June 20 Author Share Posted June 20 12 minutes ago, AndyB01 said: You are old school linear, like using a tapedeck. I am also tapedeck oldschool yardstick linear. That's the point. If Sonar adopts some kind of funky looper that kids will love, that is great, I have no issues with the progress. I do have issues how Bandlab treats those "oldschoolers" like me who simply want some kind of confidence as far as DAW goes for the next few years. If I was young and into EDM/beats, likely Sonar - for$ would likely be on the bottom of my list. I did try FL for the fun of it and I can see how it can be useful for newer genres. It's not your fathers Fruity loops. It became pretty advanced DAW since last I have tried it. I didn't find the features I need, but thumbs up to Image Line. Still not sure who BL is aiming for holding Sonar tethered to credit card. I just can't see people joyfully jumping on their subscription wagon for the Sonar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helios.G Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 (edited) 8 hours ago, Misha said: Trying to wrap my head around this ridiculously strange Sonar "release" While many threads hint that Bandlab is not interested in us, longtime users... Lets try to understand why they tied Sonar to subscription? Judging by content Bandlab hosts... it seems mainly aimed at more modern - kiddo music. Just think for a moment. Kids who are into beatmaking, EDM and similar music will unlikely to use Cakewalk by choice. Don't get me wrong, Cakewalk is perfectly capable of delivering, but there are sooo many options, and some of these crafted specifically minding those genres (that Bandlab widely represents). Froot Loops (Starter at $99 for perpetual) or even Bitwig - perpetual licenses of light version which were given out for free at one point. Why would a kid sign up for $180 pocket drain? To become "famous"? Social stuff? I don't know (and I don't want to know). But intuition tells me Sonar will not be their decision maker. Maybe a byproduct. So why Bandlab is taking a swing a us, most loyal group? Remains a dark & unhappy mystery. I am confident they will leave Cakewalk by Bandlab alone for at least a year, but without known expiration date, as of now to me it's a dead man walking. I will put my urge of switching DAW on pause for a few months in hope that they either release normal licenses or at least clarify plans for the future of Cakewalk & Sonar. I think you're seriously overthinking this. They're a corporation. A corporation wants to make money. They want to monetize all of their user base, not just the "kiddo's" or the "old timers", but everyone that uses their services. They made Next bandlab adjacent, but with some similar functionality to Sonar, so as to introduce young creators to more robust tools. That clearly is in the hope to have them "graduate" to Sonar eventually as their careers progress. All that said, I repeat, you're seriously overthinking this. I make "kiddo" music (pop). I'm not young, I'm not geriatric either. I'm not being catered to in either scenario. In the end it doesn't matter. Make music. That's what all of these tools are for. You don't want to pay? Don't, find another tool, and make music. You're ok with paying? Cool. Stick around, and make music. At the end of the day if you're on here daily fretting about what a company that doesn't know any of us personally is going to do next, you're not making music. I choose to make music, and I come on here once or twice a day to get out of a technical jam or to maybe help someone get out of theirs. Nothing more, nothing less. Make music. That's it. Edited June 20 by Helios.G 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookiee Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 @Misha ironically Cakewalk Pro Audio had a looping function. You could create a single clip and loop it for the length of your song without dragging it out like you do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Screed Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 40 minutes ago, Helios.G said: I think you're seriously overthinking this. They're a corporation. A corporation wants to make money. They want to monetize all of their user base, not just the "kiddo's" or the "old timers", but everyone that uses their services. They made Next bandlab adjacent, but with some similar functionality to Sonar, so as to introduce young creators to more robust tools. That clearly is in the hope to have them "graduate" to Sonar eventually as their careers progress. All that said, I repeat, you're seriously overthinking this. I make "kiddo" music (pop). I'm not young, I'm not geriatric either. I'm not being catered to in either scenario. In the end it doesn't matter. Make music. That's what all of these tools are for. You don't want to pay? Don't, find another tool, and make music. You're ok with paying? Cool. Stick around, and make music. At the end of the day if you're on here daily fretting about what a company that doesn't know any of us personally is going to do next, you're not making music. I choose to make music, and I come on here once or twice a day to get out of a technical jam or to maybe help someone get out of theirs. Nothing more, nothing less. Make music. That's it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misha Posted June 20 Author Share Posted June 20 20 minutes ago, Helios.G said: I think you're seriously overthinking this. They're a corporation. Nope. I am not overthinking, I am confused. Exactly, because it's corporation it should understand "target" audience. By kiddos I mean somebody who grew up with touchscreens and more intuitive controls for loops, triggering, etc. There is nothing bad about it, just different. Gorillaz made whole album on ipad decade and a half ago and it's awesome. However Cakewalk/Sonar never appealed much to beatmakers. To some - yes. Is it capable? Yes. However, mainstream Cakewalk users seems to be in Pop (traditional), Rock and a few other bread & butter electro/acoustic genres. "Next" looks to be the right starter path for what it seems they (BL) are trying to achieve, but Sonar seems to be a misfit for sub only. 41 minutes ago, Helios.G said: You don't want to pay? Don't, find another tool, and make music. I want to pay, just not for subscription. Rent-to-own or buy it outright would work just fine. Unfortunately other tools don't have particular tracking feature that Cakewalk has. I tried most. So it will be a trade-off to adopt to something that I've got used to for many years. 49 minutes ago, Helios.G said: At the end of the day if you're on here daily fretting about what a company that doesn't know any of us personally is going to do next, you're not making music. Actually, I use Cakewalk on daily basis. That is what is bothering me the most. I am afraid that if I start to deep learn another DAW it will slash many many hours of scarce time I have to write tunes. Spending a few minutes to show my dissatisfaction with how I think BL handled this release, that I (and many others) had high hopes for is not biggie. Collective bargaining had worked in some cases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helios.G Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 3 minutes ago, Misha said: Nope. I am not overthinking, I am confused. Exactly, because it's corporation it should understand "target" audience. By kiddos I mean somebody who grew up with touchscreens and more intuitive controls for loops, triggering, etc. There is nothing bad about it, just different. Gorillaz made whole album on ipad decade and a half ago and it's awesome. However Cakewalk/Sonar never appealed much to beatmakers. To some - yes. Is it capable? Yes. However, mainstream Cakewalk users seems to be in Pop (traditional), Rock and a few other bread & butter electro/acoustic genres. "Next" looks to be the right starter path for what it seems they (BL) are trying to achieve, but Sonar seems to be a misfit for sub only. I want to pay, just not for subscription. Rent-to-own or buy it outright would work just fine. Unfortunately other tools don't have particular tracking feature that Cakewalk has. I tried most. So it will be a trade-off to adopt to something that I've got used to for many years. Actually, I use Cakewalk on daily basis. That is what is bothering me the most. I am afraid that if I start to deep learn another DAW it will slash many many hours of scarce time I have to write tunes. Spending a few minutes to show my dissatisfaction with how I think BL handled this release, that I (and many others) had high hopes for is not biggie. Collective bargaining had worked in some cases ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user 905133 Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, Wookiee said: @Misha ironically Cakewalk Pro Audio had a looping function. You could create a single clip and loop it for the length of your song without dragging it out like you do now. Even Cakewalk for MS-DOS let us select the number of times a track would loop. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misha Posted June 20 Author Share Posted June 20 13 minutes ago, User 905133 said: Even Cakewalk for MS-DOS let us select the number of times a track would loo p. You don't have to convince me. I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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