Terry Kelley Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) 30 minutes ago, David Baay said: … Like Craig said, the developers aren't in it for the money; it's the intellectual challenge of innovating that keeps them around. If they aren’t in it for the money they are fools. And I'll bet that they wouldn’t be with Bandlab if they were independently wealthy or won the lottery. They like all of us would be … gone. But it played out as I suspected. Edited June 13 by Terry Kelley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Baay Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 37 minutes ago, Terry Kelley said: And I'll bet that they wouldn’t be with Bandlab if they were independently wealthy or won the lottery. Meng's in it, and he is independently wealthy. ? That said, it should be understood that the expression "not in it for the money" typically implies "not only/primarily in it for the money". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmmatt1 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 So that's how it ends? What ever happened to Bandlabs 'Democratization of Music' - the original BS about why Cakewalk was Free? ALL LIES Platinum still works fine...so Bandlab - feel free to pull the plug on the excellent free version of 'Cakewalk by Bandlab' at any time now (sorry to those users who do not have Platinum). Many would have just payed to be released from this 'hostage' type approach. Has anyone else tried LUNA? It's seems like an excellent new DAW that is now truly 'free' - without a leash to Singapore. And by a company not as crooked as a dogs hind leg. Bye Felecia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 I would have continued with Sonar 8 but it doesn’t support VST3 and a couple of plugins only come in VST3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Anderton Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 On 6/5/2024 at 4:14 PM, Misha said: Fortunately or unfortunately Cakewalk has a very particular "takes" workflow that for now is only available... in Cakewalk. Can you elaborate on what this particular "takes" workflow is? I'm pretty familiar with recent versions of most other DAWs. Maybe some updates have addressed your needs. Or, maybe they should update to a better workflow if that's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Anderton Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 1 hour ago, Terry Kelley said: If they aren’t in it for the money they are fools. My kid is a software designer who turned down a super-lucrative job offer to help make smart bombs that could kill greater numbers of people more efficiently. People who value things other than money aren't fools. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Anderton Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Did anyone notice this from the FAQ: Will Cakewalk Sonar be offered via one-time purchase or perpetual license? At this time, Cakewalk Next and Cakewalk Sonar are available exclusively through BandLab Membership. Is Cakewalk Sonar replacing Cakewalk by BandLab? Cakewalk Sonar builds and improves on Cakewalk by BandLab, offering advanced technology, effortless workflow, and an interface that amplifies inspiration. However, Cakewalk by BandLab will continue to be free without a subscription requirement. While the software will continue receiving essential maintenance updates, no new feature development is planned as we prioritize advancements in Cakewalk Next and Cakewalk Sonar. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol_Jonesey Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 12 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said: Did anyone notice this from the FAQ: Will Cakewalk Sonar be offered via one-time purchase or perpetual license? At this time, Cakewalk Next and Cakewalk Sonar are available exclusively through BandLab Membership. Is Cakewalk Sonar replacing Cakewalk by BandLab? Cakewalk Sonar builds and improves on Cakewalk by BandLab, offering advanced technology, effortless workflow, and an interface that amplifies inspiration. However, Cakewalk by BandLab will continue to be free without a subscription requirement. While the software will continue receiving essential maintenance updates, no new feature development is planned as we prioritize advancements in Cakewalk Next and Cakewalk Sonar. Craig, I'm afraid people only see what they want to see. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conteloto Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 17 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said: Did anyone notice this from the FAQ: Will Cakewalk Sonar be offered via one-time purchase or perpetual license? At this time, Cakewalk Next and Cakewalk Sonar are available exclusively through BandLab Membership. Is Cakewalk Sonar replacing Cakewalk by BandLab? Cakewalk Sonar builds and improves on Cakewalk by BandLab, offering advanced technology, effortless workflow, and an interface that amplifies inspiration. However, Cakewalk by BandLab will continue to be free without a subscription requirement. While the software will continue receiving essential maintenance updates, no new feature development is planned as we prioritize advancements in Cakewalk Next and Cakewalk Sonar. So cbb will continue to be free as it is at the moment, if you want something better or with improvements, there will be a sonar, that's great. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said: My kid is a software designer who turned down a super-lucrative job offer to help make smart bombs that could kill greater numbers of people more efficiently. People who value things other than money aren't fools. Ethics is not the same altruism. My point stands. Most of us work for money to survive. In the case where you enjoy the work where you are willing to let some financial gain go by the wayside, that’s great. I’ve had a few positions where I couldn’t believe they were paying me to do something I enjoyed so much. But for most people and I mean most, we work to survive and if we didn’t have to, we wouldn’t. We would focus on what makes us happy since we have the money we need. Sorry, but I seriously doubt the Bandlab developers are doing it out of the kindness of their heart. That’s all we are taking about. I am in no way criticizing ANYBODY’s ethics. There are always exceptions to everything. As for CbB remaining free, BL was clear early on that CbB would cease at some point. It’s only a matter time since they will want to drive as many people as they can to paying. Edited June 13 by Terry Kelley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Nelson Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Bandlab's priority is selling Bandlab membership, not selling Sonar/Next. One moves their needles more.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misha Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 40 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said: Can you elaborate on what this particular "takes" workflow is? I'm pretty familiar with recent versions of most other DAWs. Maybe some updates have addressed your needs. Or, maybe they should update to a better workflow if that's the case. Craig, thank you for volunteering. In Cakewalk you can use takes as independent tracks, with their own gain string+node editing, sound on sound comping, mutes and/or solos on individual lanes. I have tried pretty much most modern DAWs on the market, leaving a few untouched like Magix , Motu performer and couple of others. None have same workflow. Similar - yes, but far from being what I want. Studio One is likely overall closest to Cakewalk as far as workflow goes. Speaking of "Touch" Sonar/Cakewalk undoubtably pioneer (Windows) in touch screen capabilities /navigation , Bitwig, which is closest, is still far away. I am a Cakewalk guy. Had been for 20+ years. I don't have any desire to switch. What got me tripped is that FAQ had very particular wording on Cakewalk life expectancy , which they later removed. I came to conclusion that it's very unlikely BL will pull carpet under in similar manner as Gibson did. As long as I (we) have 2-3 years to see how Sonar might be offered, I decided to abandon my demanding tone and just see how things will play out in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Anderton Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 1 hour ago, Terry Kelley said: Sorry, but I seriously doubt the Bandlab developers are doing it out of the kindness of their heart. That’s all we are taking about. Okay, that's different from calling them fools for not being into it for the money, which is how I interpreted what you said. The concept of people expecting to get paid for the work they do goes without saying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB99 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Nothing is forever. A lifetime warranty is generally for the lifetime of the company. No matter what bandlab says right now, it can change. If bandlab believes that a subscription model keeps Sonar going in a financially sustainable way, so be it. Nothing stops them from changing that later. So I just choose to be grateful that bandlab picked up cakewalk, that it was free for years, that Sonar exists even with a subscription, that the subscription rate is reasonable, that Cakewalk staff and this forum is fabulous, and that people like Craig Anderton are will to add so much free expertise to any of us. Imho, this is way better than having the product bounce around to different companies. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Questions for the "BandLab is only interested in subscriptions and won't be offering Sonar via perpetual license" people, and I'm being sincere this time, I really want to know what people think if we can set snark and innuendo aside: How many people should they expect to go for it, based on what? So far the most common arguments I've seen are that we haven't been told for sure yet, so far the only way to be able to use Sonar is in a subscription bundled with Next and all of BandLab's other services, and that most (not all) software companies would rather have users on subscription plans. I agree that all of those things are true, but I believe that there are other factors to consider. BandLab has spent the last 6 years building a large userbase of people who were attracted to Cakewalk by BandLab because it was free. Surely for other reasons as well, but I wouldn't have paid it much attention if I hadn't been curious about the way they turned SONAR into freeware. Can they expect enough people to be drawn in to BandLab subscriptions to make the development costs worthwhile? I personally see that as unlikely, but I don't know, I'm asking for opinions here. No snark intended, not a rhetorical question either. This is what I see when I look around: Software licensing by subscription is gaining more traction in the consumer segment. That said.... There's only one other DAW you can only get as part of a subscription bundle, and that's Adobe Audition. I of course don't know how much of Audition's userbase is made up of people who would be using it if it weren't included in the bundle with Photoshop, Illustrator, and Premiere, but I suspect that it's a small group. IMO, Adobe were able to force the subscription model because Photoshop owned the market so completely. They rightly calculated that the pro's who had to have Photoshop would pay for the subscription even if they preferred a perpetual license, and that the number of amateur users they would lose wouldn't be significant. There are a number of competing DAW's in the under $100 perpetual license price range, including Mixcraft, REAPER, and Studio One Artist. While the number of features these DAW's have may not be much greater than what Sonar has to offer, the features they do have tend to have been implemented in more recent years, so they include features that may be more likely to attract younger users. They are all solid, well-supported programs. Next, aimed as it is at first time DAW users, is a hard sell on subscription, because I don't think that someone who wants to try this DAW thing out is going to want to pay for a year in order to do so. The venerable Waves not long ago tried to make their product line subscription-only and the blowback was so hard that within a week, they had abandoned the approach and gone back to offering perpetuals once more. On this forum and on YouTube, there seem to be a majority who at least say they would rather switch to another DAW than pay for Sonar via subscription. So, given all of the above, I still think it is unlikely that Sonar (nor Next) in its final released form will only be available via subscription. But if you don't think it's unlikely, what are you basing it on other than the fact that we don't know yet, and that companies prefer subscription licensing? Do you think it makes business sense for BL to try it? If not, do you think that they are short sighted and/or misguided? I'm genuinely curious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Stanton Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) i'll be trading in my Slate subscription which is also around $15/month. not really a hardship as i don't really use a lot of it anyways unless someone sends me a project with them already in it. so - 2 in the past 2 years? the VSX and microphone stuff are all perpetual so i'll be good. as far as a fixed price? i'd suggest $375USD new, or with any major release upgrade / cross-product at $199USD (so about every 2 years or when you trade in PS 6 / Mixcraft ? ) it's like people who lease automobiles or buy mass-transit subscriptions - steady fixed (hopefully) monthly outlays, so for a continuous development and maintenance, subscriptions help to fund that vs, a single payment with the expectation of ongoing long-term support. Edited June 13 by Glenn Stanton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Cakewalk for free? You can’t beat the offer. Cakewalk for a monthly fee? You can beat the offer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol_Jonesey Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 14 minutes ago, Terry Kelley said: Cakewalk for free? You can’t beat the offer. Cakewalk for a monthly fee? You can beat the offer. Except it isn't Cakewalk for a monthly fee, it's called Cakewalk Sonar And you also get: Early access to beta creation tools like 32-tracks in Studio, Voice Cleaner, Voice-to-MIDI, AutoKey, and more. Unlimited Opportunities submissions to land live gigs, record deals, or mentorship from industry experts. Distribution to release your music on major platforms, track your releases, and keep 100% of the royalties you make. Fan Reach to market your music, build a contactable list of listeners, and grow your fanbase. Profile Boost to get your profile promoted to high-traffic spots on the BandLab feed. Permanent Member-exclusive features like a fifth guitar stem split on Splitter. Customizable profile banners and the option to feature up to five profile photos. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 If you want exposure, play live and go on the road. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misha Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 50 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said: I'm genuinely curious. I think it would be extremely unreasonable not to sell perpetual licenses, while 90%+ of competition offer normal licenses. Some folks here mention age? I believe age has nothing to do with it. Most companies offer third party solution to buy it over 6 or 12 month without interest. So I am sure, even with a low paying starter job one can manage to pay for a DAW within a year. My guess, there will be some kind of introductory discount when they decide to release new Sonar, but regular price tiers likely should to be from $99-$399 USD. (Should we play Price is right?) I doubt they will do company any good if the only option will be subscription. Many people will go bye bye. Waves comes to mind. Even when company flipped the sub only decision, I stopped looking into their products. To me they are dead. With Bandlab, I have a feeling it is different. I am sure it's in their plans to release Sonar as perpetual, but their marketing needs some serious spanking. P.S. This is one of the best musical tech communities I came across. While it seems irrelevant, I believe community is also a part of the deal. I think if they wait for too long with licenses, community will start to erode. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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