mixing vocals issues

[greg54]

7 minutes ago, John Vere said:

It is the oldest studio practice from the beginning of time. 
Find the right mike! 

Large Capsule Mikes have always made me sound terrible.  I tried over and over waisting a lot of money, only to end up going back to my Beta 58. A mike I have depended on for 35 years. 
I now can use my SM7 for stuff like harmonies and it’s hard to hear much difference. 
And I’m not saying the Beta will work for everyone. There’s a lot of top quality dynamic mikes to choose from. It’s a life long quest to find the right mike that works with your voice. 
Alway start at the beginning, not the end! 

Well, I took your advice, John, and I ordered a Beta 58.   I've always used condensers.   Maybe with my voice, that's the issue.  We will see.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

3 hours ago, greg54 said:

Well, I took your advice, John, and I ordered a Beta 58.   I've always used condensers.   Maybe with my voice, that's the issue.  We will see.

Just remember dynamic mics don't need Phantom Power

[greg54]

8 minutes ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

Just remember dynamic mics don't need Phantom Power

Yes, but I got an se Electronics DM2 inline preamp to use with it, and it requires phantom power.   

[John Vere]

What is your audio interface? You might want to try also removing the pre amp from the signal path when you get the Beta. It might colour the sound. 
I’ve never had any issues using interface pre amps other than my Focusrite 6i6. I didn’t like the sound I got from those so I bought a Joe Meek pre amp. But when I then got the Motu M 4 it doesn’t have proper impedance on the 3/4 inputs. 
Now I have a Zoom L8 and it’s the best sound I’ve ever had overall.  
But in the plan is the SSL 2. 
People who have reviewed it claim the pre amps are top notch out of the majority of interfaces and stand alone pre amps. 

[greg54]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

What is your audio interface? You might want to try also removing the pre amp from the signal path when you get the Beta. It might colour the sound. 
I’ve never had any issues using interface pre amps other than my Focusrite 6i6. I didn’t like the sound I got from those so I bought a Joe Meek pre amp. But when I then got the Motu M 4 it doesn’t have proper impedance on the 3/4 inputs. 
Now I have a Zoom L8 and it’s the best sound I’ve ever had overall.  
But in the plan is the SSL 2. 
People who have reviewed it claim the pre amps are top notch out of the majority of interfaces and stand alone pre amps. 

I'm using a Focusrite 18i20.   For a preamp I'm using a Warm Audio WA12Mkll.  I like it better than the Focusrite preamps.  Prior to the Focusrite I had an SSL2.  It was nice, I admit.    And they have great service.  But I needed more inputs.

[greg54]

UPDATE:  I received the Shure Beta 58, and it does not sound good with my voice and my setup, for whatever reason.  I do appreciate the advice, though.  

 

[Glenn Stanton]

i've always used an SM58 and sometimes an SM57 w/ pop filter.

then about 12 years ago? i bought a Behringer B-2 Pro. $200. i've used this with many really good vocalists both recording and live and it is just awesome. esp given the price. now i have heard a few people with lemons but most folks who try it a surprised by how good it is for vocals. multiple patterns (mono, figure-8, and cardiod), 10db pad (never used it myself). 

my other favorite is the Audio-Technia 3035 - but it's more "neutral" than the dynamics or the B-2 so it's good for cases where you need really flat (at least it seems flatter). right now i have a Slate VMS ML-1 sitting next to me and it's ok  -- but i really like the filters to mimic other mics so i use those more than recording with the mic itself.

Edited April 17 by Glenn Stanton

[John Vere]

Did you try it with and without the pre amp. You need to rule out what is causing you to hear what it is you don’t like. A Beta 58  more or least a SM58 with a different pre amp. A standard mike for live sound used by millions of top performers because it is transparent and rejects feedback better than most. 
The Beta adds a crispy sound the SM is lacking. Example smack your lips into a SM58 and then the Beta. 
And it has a pronounced proximity effect so you get a warmer tone the closer you get. Over time I have developed a proper mike technique that takes advantage of this. Both live and in the studio. 

[greg54]

17 minutes ago, John Vere said:

Did you try it with and without the pre amp. You need to rule out what is causing you to hear what it is you don’t like. A Beta 58  more or least a SM58 with a different pre amp. A standard mike for live sound used by millions of top performers because it is transparent and rejects feedback better than most. 
The Beta adds a crispy sound the SM is lacking. Example smack your lips into a SM58 and then the Beta. 
And it has a pronounced proximity effect so you get a warmer tone the closer you get. Over time I have developed a proper mike technique that takes advantage of this. Both live and in the studio. 

I did not try it without the preamp.  However, my U87 clone sounds better to me.     I guess I just need to work with it to find how to get the best recording I can with it. 

I do appreciate everyone's input. 

[Max Arwood]

What kind of vocal booth? This could also be the problem. 

[greg54]

14 hours ago, Max Arwood said:

What kind of vocal booth? This could also be the problem. 

I put up three 6' tall panels (about 2.5' wide) and covered them with shipping blankets.  Then I put acoustic panels on the blankets inside the booth.  

Edited April 18 by greg54

[Max Arwood]

That is very small. Have you tried to do it in a regular room? Stand near a corner sing towards the center. Also, if there is a bookcase or a wall that is filled with stuff. Sing toward the corner with the most uneven surfaces, not a plain wall. You could move a blanket and hang it temporary in the corner just for a test, and try that. 

[OutrageProductions]

@greg54
You might be very surprized by the effectiveness of one of THESE (or similar type)

[John Vere]

Therefore the reason I use a dynamic  mike that is a world class leader in rejecting background noise. No real need for a vocal booth. My studio is well treated and dead as a doornail. My computer is very quiet. 

Even in well treated rooms I found the highly sensitive nature of the LDC mikes picked up everything. I make a LOT of noise when I sing, breathing and my lips smack. It's horrible. I also found all my years of perfecting a mike technique went out the window. Moving in and out on a LDC made little difference  And my quiet computer became real noticeable. I had to build it a isolation box.  These were all good highly recommended  mikes and overall  they sounded great. But the artifacts from my voice did not play well.  The dynamics of my performance then required much more editing and EQ. I think I only bought a couple of them the others I borrowed. I used them for my acoustic instruments but they were sold off to purchase other toys. I kept this  one Made by CAD, I like it a lot on drums. 

So don't rule out that the perfect mike for you isn't dynamic mike. I guess it wasn't the Beta 58 but there's no shortage of good quality Dynamic mikes in the world. Possibly you could find one with a similar EQ pattern.  My music store will let me try stuff out as long as I put a wind sock on it. Most music stores have a Iso booth you can use and will set you up with a small mixer. Bring your own headphones that you trust and even take your currant mike. Last time I did this I was testing small mixers to see which one had the best reverb built in. 

Edited April 18 by John Vere

[greg54]

20 hours ago, Max Arwood said:

That is very small. Have you tried to do it in a regular room? Stand near a corner sing towards the center. Also, if there is a bookcase or a wall that is filled with stuff. Sing toward the corner with the most uneven surfaces, not a plain wall. You could move a blanket and hang it temporary in the corner just for a test, and try that. 

My room is 12x12.   It's cluttered, and there are things in the corners.  I did convert the closet into a vocal booth for a while, but to go back and forth to the computer and booth was a pain.   So I constructed a vocal booth (not small) near where my computer is.

[greg54]

19 hours ago, OutrageProductions said:

You might be very surprized by the effectiveness of one of THESE (or similar type)

I have tried one, and they do work decently.

[greg54]

18 hours ago, John Vere said:

So don't rule out that the perfect mike for you isn't dynamic mike.

I'm not ruing out anyone's suggestions.  I may try a different dynamic mic, like a Sennheiser.

[greg54]

One thing I need to mention:  My original post was not about mics or vocal booths but about playback to try to mix.  My issue is that I'm not sure if I'm hearing the mix correctly.  Monitors have frequencies that sound one way, and headphones sound another.

[John Vere]

1 hour ago, greg54 said:

Monitors have frequencies that sound one way, and headphones sound another.

To infinity! That is why most of us have lots of options in the studio to proof mixes.  Over time you learn to know what it is you are actually hearing from you monitors. It seems from what you are saying you have good monitors you trust.   But you also were saying you were not happy with the sound of your vocals. So is it that they sound great after you EQ them in the monitors and everywhere else but not on your headphones?  Don't use those headphones, simple. 

I have dozens of headphones I've bought over time, many were expensive and name brands. I only have one pair that I trust, Apex HP 60.  They are so old all the vinyl is gone from the foam. Finding the right Headphones is like that quest for a Mike that matches your voice.  

The other headphones are scattered about the house and might see use when I have someone else in the studio. 

[greg54]

3 minutes ago, John Vere said:

 But you also were saying you were not happy with the sound of your vocals. So is it that they sound great after you EQ them in the monitors and everywhere else but not on your headphones? 

When I listen on the monitors, I hear every little imperfection in my vocals.  But through headphones (and I have several pairs) I can't hear any weird frequencies.  They sound good.  So I guess I'll trust the monitors and fix all the frequency issues.  That way I'll know they'll be right (or better).