mixing vocals issues

[greg54]

I'm trying to mix my songs, and I'm confused about something.    I do not have a room that is soundproof.   I did put up panels to make it better though.   This is my issue with mixing:  When I play the song back to eq the vocals, what I hear through my monitors (Adam Audio) is that the vocals have some frequency issues here and there.  However, when I listen on headphones, the issues are either not there or they are barely audible.   I use Grado Labs headphones.  So what do I trust?  The monitors or the headphones?

[Glenn Stanton]

if you're room isn't treated and your ears are not "calibrated" to it (i.e. you mix something on your speakers and take it elsewhere, and it sounds correct), and if your ears are not "calibrated" to the headphones (i.e. you mix something on your headphones and take it elsewhere, and it sounds correct) then you cannot really trust either one. 

with the panels up, did you do any acoustic measurements to get a sense of the listening position response? and then adjust positions etc to get it flatter? 

with the headphones, are you using any software (e.g. sound reference etc) to flatten the headphone response?

did you calibrate the playback levels of the speakers and headphones? say both to 75db? loudness contours of our ears result in hearing things differently at different pressure levels.

 

[John Vere]

Lots of things to consider.
First You need to learn your monitoring system or purchase ones you trust. If you use monitoring that results in your mix sounding incorrect on all other systems then it needs replacement or adjustments using software you can purchase. 
Example I’ve used my Yamaha NSM 10’s since 1995. I’ve used them in dozens of different spaces from terrible to properly treated rooms. My mixes will always be within the ballpark of accurate.

Same goes for my very old set of headphones. The foam is falling off but I’m reluctant to replace them. I have about 10 others.  
 

But then I will proof my mixes on as many systems as I can. My favourite is a cheap mono Bluetooth speaker that is easy to play exported  mixes through Media Player even with Sonar still running. 
There’s also SonoBus to send to my cell phone which I can use it’s built in speakers and a set of terrible Bluetooth headphones. 
All that at my desk. 
USB sticks are handy and work in the car and truck as well as my getting blaster in the kitchen. 
 

But my other question is why are you requiring a lot of EQ for your voice ? That makes me think you are using the wrong mike and signal path. 
My guess is you went and bought a Large diaphragm condenser mike and as you said you don’t have a treated room. Try a Beta 58. Best vocal mike for untreated rooms. 
My songs are all over the internet so listen to them . My vocals are done on a Beta 58 into various different interfaces and only EQ is hi pass at 100 hz. Only processing is a touch of compression and reverb, 

We all hate the sound of our own vocals so keep that in mind too.  

Edited April 12 by John Vere

[greg54]

3 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

if you're room isn't treated and your ears are not "calibrated" to it (i.e. you mix something on your speakers and take it elsewhere, and it sounds correct), and if your ears are not "calibrated" to the headphones (i.e. you mix something on your headphones and take it elsewhere, and it sounds correct) then you cannot really trust either one. 

with the panels up, did you do any acoustic measurements to get a sense of the listening position response? and then adjust positions etc to get it flatter? 

with the headphones, are you using any software (e.g. sound reference etc) to flatten the headphone response?

did you calibrate the playback levels of the speakers and headphones? say both to 75db? loudness contours of our ears result in hearing things differently at different pressure levels.

I have acoustic panels on the walls, along with the panels in the room, but I haven't measured anything.   I'm not using any software with the headphones.  Calibrating playback levels and acoustic measurements are unfamiliar to me.

[greg54]

2 hours ago, John Vere said:

Lots of things to consider.
First You need to learn your monitoring system or purchase ones you trust. If you use monitoring that results in your mix sounding incorrect on all other systems then it needs replacement or adjustments using software you can purchase. 
Example I’ve used my Yamaha NSM 10’s since 1995. I’ve used them in dozens of different spaces from terrible to properly treated rooms. My mixes will always be within the ballpark of accurate.

Same goes for my very old set of headphones. The foam is falling off but I’m reluctant to replace them. I have about 10 others.  
 

But then I will proof my mixes on as many systems as I can. My favourite is a cheap mono Bluetooth speaker that is easy to play exported  mixes through Media Player even with Sonar still running. 
There’s also SonoBus to send to my cell phone which I can use it’s built in speakers and a set of terrible Bluetooth headphones. 
All that at my desk. 
USB sticks are handy and work in the car and truck as well as my getting blaster in the kitchen. 
 

But my other question is why are you requiring a lot of EQ for your voice ? That makes me think you are using the wrong mike and signal path. 
My guess is you went and bought a Large diaphragm condenser mike and as you said you don’t have a treated room. Try a Beta 58. Best vocal mike for untreated rooms. 
My songs are all over the internet so listen to them . My vocals are done on a Beta 58 into various different interfaces and only EQ is hi pass at 100 hz. Only processing is a touch of compression and reverb, 

We all hate the sound of our own vocals so keep that in mind too.  

I do use the Steven Slate VSX system that allows me to hear my songs in virtual rooms.  

I have watched way too many videos on eg-ing vocals.  They use more eq-ing than I do.  I didn't I use a lot.  But I do have to eq.

My other instruments all sound good.  It's just the vocals that I'm having issues with.

[Will.]

3 hours ago, greg54 said:

 However, when I listen on headphones, the issues are either not there or they are barely audible. 

Always trust your Monitors -- Always! Headphones "might"(using it loosely) work on certain drums and instruments, but it will never work for vocals. 

Edited April 12 by Will.

[msmcleod]

The most important rule is to know your monitors.  This takes hundreds of hours of listening to good mixes (from other people) on those monitors, in your mixing room, sitting in your mixing position.  Try to listen as big a range of songs you know really well as much as possible.

While this won't remove any deficiencies with your room/monitors (and FWIW every room has them), you'll at least be at a point where you know what sounds good or bad in your room.   

Pick a reference track from that list of songs that closely resembles your song and put it in your project - level match it to your project, then mute it, then every so often compare it to your song.  Listen carefully to things like the balance between vocals / instruments, and how boomy or loud the bass is.

If you're getting big discrepancies between different speakers/rooms though, I'd recommend some room correction.  I bought ARC 2 years ago, and the difference was night & day.

I'd take a look at IK's ARC Studio, which is a hardware unit - it sits between your audio interface and your monitors.  If I didn't already have ARC 2, I'd have bought it by now.

Oh... and if you are going to invest in any room correction, do this before you start listening to stuff for hundreds of hours... else you'll need to start listening from scratch!

[Wookiee]

@greg54 if you can afford it ARC Studio is a valuable addition to your Studio setup. 

[greg54]

2 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I'd take a look at IK's ARC Studio, which is a hardware unit - it sits between your audio interface and your monitors.  If I didn't already have ARC 2, I'd have bought it by now.

I was just looking at ARC Studio, although I don't understand how it improves what I'm listening to.   I mean, if my vocals were recorded badly (and I'm not saying they were; but maybe that's the issue.   I do record in a homemade vocal booth though), then they're not going to sound good no matter what.  I'm still trying to figure out if that is the issue or my room or what.

I have decent monitors - Adam Audio and Avantone CLA10.  I do have lots of reference tracks, and all the vocals sound different.  I was just listening to some Michael McDonald songs, and they do not sound good, as far as vocal quality is concerned.  And others, like Boz Scaggs' vocals, sound perfect.   So it's hard to know.

My issue with my vocals is that frequencies in some places (words, phrases) are too nasal, mid rangy or dark, while the rest of the vocals sound good.  Maybe I just need to learn to eq better.  Maybe it's my voice.

Edited April 12 by greg54

[msmcleod]

1 hour ago, greg54 said:

I was just looking at ARC Studio, although I don't understand how it improves what I'm listening to.   I mean, if my vocals were recorded badly (and I'm not saying they were; but maybe that's the issue.   I do record in a homemade vocal booth though), then they're not going to sound good no matter what.  I'm still trying to figure out if that is the issue or my room or what.

I have decent monitors - Adam Audio and Avantone CLA10.  I do have lots of reference tracks, and all the vocals sound different.  I was just listening to some Michael McDonald songs, and they do not sound good, as far as vocal quality is concerned.  And others, like Boz Scaggs' vocals, sound perfect.   So it's hard to know.

My issue with my vocals is that frequencies in some places (words, phrases) are too nasal, mid rangy or dark, while the rest of the vocals sound good.  Maybe I just need to learn to eq better.  Maybe it's my voice.

You could have the best monitors in the world, but they're worthless if you put them in the wrong room  or even in the wrong position in a room.  An extreme example would be to put them in a tiled bathroom - nothing is gonna sound good there. 

Almost every room has issues with certain frequencies.  If the frequencies your having problems with in your vocals also happen to be frequencies that your room either masks or boosts, then you're going to having issues mixing.  No speaker is going to change that.

The point is if you're not hearing the frequencies properly, regardless of your mixing skills you'll be making the wrong EQ decisions. 

For example, say your room has a dip at 350Hz or at 800Hz - you think everything sounds thin, so you boost the frequencies around there.  However you then play it on another system, and everything sounds muddy or nasal.  You've boosted a frequency because you can't hear it properly - not because it's not there, but because your room has EQ'd it out.

The main issue in my room was my bass response was overly exaggerated. Moving the speakers away from the wall helped, but my mixes still had almost no bass when I played them elsewhere.  I heard too much bass so I turned it down.  But the problem wasn't that there was too much bass in my mix, the problem was that my room was boosting the bass, making me think it needed turned it down.

ARC corrected the frequencies (as it happens, there were other frequencies that had issues too), and right away I heard my mixes with nearly no bass like I heard them elsewhere.  I remixed (essentially turning the bass frequencies back up), and it sounded great wherever I played them.

What room treatment software like ARC Studio do is measure your room's response from 20Hz to 20Khz with a swept tone.  Measurements are taken in several places around your listening area.  The software then attempts to boost or cut the frequencies to give a flatter response.

It probably won't solve problems like standing waves or reflections, but it can go a long way.

It's definitely worth getting a measurement mic and some measurement software and at least going through the process of measuring your room.  You can get measurement mics for around $50 -$100, and there is free software out there.

In the old days, commercial studios got people to measure their rooms in this way, then used a stereo 32 band graphic EQ to draw the inverse curve of what was measured  - the software (and the ARC Studio hardware) are just doing the same thing.

[Andres Medina]

I do use ARC Studio.

It made a huge difference not only in the accuracy of the frequencies, but also made the listening experience a lot better in the whole production process, from scratch to Mastering. 

Highly recommended.

[Kevin Walsh]

+1 on ARC Studio. Another alternative is the VSX headphone system by Slate. I get very consistent results with that system.

[Byron Dickens]

You need bass traps - real bass traps and not chunks of foam masquerading as bass traps - before you need room correction software.

[msmcleod]

5 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

You need bass traps - real bass traps and not chunks of foam masquerading as bass traps - before you need room correction software.

That was the initial plan for my room, except it's 1.5m x 7m, so there's literally no room for them.  ARC did the job in any case.

[Kalle Rantaaho]

The  OP says the problem occurs only in vocals, some notes too nasal  and such. It doesn't sound like a lack of bass traps to me.

I'd try different microphones. I did not see mentioned what kind of mic the OP uses. Also I'd like to know how does  the frequency curve of a commercial vocal part, one that OP likes,  look like compared to OP's own track.

I have a set of Sony Hi-fi headphones that can sound  fantastic, just like Tom Petty or the likes with acoustic guitar tracks. Problem is, listened through any loudspeakers I have, the same tracks are plain distortion, unusable. Having proplems with just certain cyllables or letters, leading to assume EQ is to blame,  might root back to microphone.

[Starship Krupa]

21 hours ago, greg54 said:

what I hear through my monitors (Adam Audio) is that the vocals have some frequency issues here and there.  However, when I listen on headphones, the issues are either not there or they are barely audible.   I use Grado Labs headphones.  So what do I trust?  The monitors or the headphones?

Have you ever read a description of headphones or speakers that referred to them as "revealing?" That may be what you are experiencing. Your Adam monitors may be more "revealing" than your Grado headphones. The criteria for pleasant listening vs. mixing are different.

People have made multiple suggestions, but I'm still not clear on whether it's your vocal tracks you are unhappy with or just your vocal tracks when you play them back on your monitor speakers. And I'm not clear on whether it's any of the monitor speakers you own or just the Adams.

Do your vocal tracks sound bad on all of your 3 playback systems (Adams, Avantone, Grado)? Or just the Adams, or just the Adams and the Avantones?

You say that Boz Scaggs sounds good while Mike McDonald doesn't. Is that true across the cans and both sets of speakers? Or just the Adams, or just the Adams and Avantones?

We need to eliminate some variables before I can make any suggestions.

[greg54]

11 hours ago, Kevin Walsh said:

+1 on ARC Studio. Another alternative is the VSX headphone system by Slate. I get very consistent results with that system.

I have the VSX headphones system by Steven Slate.  So if I have this, I don't need ARC Studio?   It's either/or?

[greg54]

10 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

You need bass traps - real bass traps and not chunks of foam masquerading as bass traps - before you need room correction software.

I put bass traps in my room.  

[John Vere]

I’m glad @Kalle Rantaaho agreed with what I said above. 
Where as, yes, it is ideal to mix in a properly treated room I myself have rarely ever had that option for a home set up. 

Everything the OP has said makes me think it’s the capture of the vocals that is flawed and not what can be done after the fact. 

It is the oldest studio practice from the beginning of time. 
Find the right mike! 

Large Capsule Mikes have always made me sound terrible.  I tried over and over waisting a lot of money, only to end up going back to my Beta 58. A mike I have depended on for 35 years. 
I now can use my SM7 for stuff like harmonies and it’s hard to hear much difference. 
And I’m not saying the Beta will work for everyone. There’s a lot of top quality dynamic mikes to choose from. It’s a life long quest to find the right mike that works with your voice. 
Alway start at the beginning, not the end! 
 

[greg54]

3 hours ago, Kalle Rantaaho said:

The  OP says the problem occurs only in vocals, some notes too nasal  and such. It doesn't sound like a lack of bass traps to me.

I'd try different microphones. I did not see mentioned what kind of mic the OP uses. Also I'd like to know how does  the frequency curve of a commercial vocal part, one that OP likes,  look like compared to OP's own track.

I have a set of Sony Hi-fi headphones that can sound  fantastic, just like Tom Petty or the likes with acoustic guitar tracks. Problem is, listened through any loudspeakers I have, the same tracks are plain distortion, unusable. Having proplems with just certain cyllables or letters, leading to assume EQ is to blame,  might root back to microphone.

I'm using an Advanced Audio U87 clone.  But I've used other condenser mics, like Stam Audio, Rode, Audio Technica and se Electronics.  John Vere mentioned a Shure Beta 58.  I've never recorded with a dynamic mic before, but I ordered one yesterday just to try it out to see it it helps.

I did use Sony headphones for a while.  Very good.  But now I use Grado, which I like better.  

I have recorded with different mics out in the room, and in my vocal booth that I made.  And I have the same issues every time.