Sonar 8.5 Producer: Is VST3 Supported?

[Annabelle]

Hi, it's Annabelle.

I've been in contact with Aram Verwoest at Audio Ease, and he says that a future version of Speakerphone would be 64-bit and VST3. He says this would be supported in both Windows 7 and Sonar 8.5, but I need to confirm if this is true. Does a Windows 7 machine actually support VST3? ?

[bitman]

I just opened 8.0 on my win 7 32 bit laptop, went to the plug-in manager and at the very least there is a VST3 section so I would say yes.

[msmcleod]

Windows 7 does support VST3, however Sonar 8.5 does not.

IIRC, Sonar X3 was the first version of Sonar to support VST3.

You might be able to use something like the VST2 version of Blue Cat's Patchwork to wrap it up for use in Sonar 8.5, but I can't say for sure without trying it.  I'm also not sure if Speakerphone will work properly when hosted this way.

[EDIT] - At least in SONAR X2,  the VST2 version of Patchwork will host VST3 plugins.  

[bitflipper]

Mark's memory is correct. X3 was the first version to support VST3.

Annabelle, is there a compelling reason to update Speakerphone that makes it impractical to just keep using the current version?

[chuckebaby]

I will third that, X3 was the first version of Sonar to support VST3 (and maybe ARA as well).

I would encourage an update. That software will be totally unpredictable unless running on an older OS. However I typically reserve my suggestions to anyone on updating because I know sometimes you become comfortable with a DAW version and want to freeze yourself in that time because you know it's layout and features so well.

However a never version will not be unreachable in terms of learning. It will be a lot different, but the rewards will pay off 10 fold.

[John Vere]

If you have been here long enough you would know the the op has  good reasons to stay with 8.5 as she uses an app that speaks when you hold the mouse over stuff and it apparently only works with 8.5. 
 

Anyway, Annabelle I’m thinking you should see if you can just stay with the older VST2 version. 
 

I use old systems for my live shows ( W7) and I mostly just stay with the apps of the same vintage. 

[Annabelle]

3 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Windows 7 does support VST3, however Sonar 8.5 does not.

IIRC, Sonar X3 was the first version of Sonar to support VST3.

You might be able to use something like the VST2 version of Blue Cat's Patchwork to wrap it up for use in Sonar 8.5, but I can't say for sure without trying it.  I'm also not sure if Speakerphone will work properly when hosted this way.

[EDIT] - At least in SONAR X2,  the VST2 version of Patchwork will host VST3 plugins.  

What's even crazier is that Aram says that options in the new version of Speakerphone, such as loading samples from the finder and adding preset parameters to the track inspector would be difficult to make compatible with earlier versions of VST. Is it the coding that would be difficult? I'm confused!

[bitman]

Nevermind

 

Edited March 12 by bitman

[Colin Nicholls]

20 minutes ago, pwal³ said:

ableton have just introduced screen reader support in live 12 https://www.ableton.com/en/live/all-new-features/

Here is the good stuff:

Quote

Accessibility

Improved accessibility support on macOS and Windows; this includes many updates such as new themes with high-contrast variants, improved organization of Live's Preferences menu, as well as support for screen reader software and other assistive devices. While any screen reader software should work, we recommend VoiceOver (Mac) and NVDA (Win) for the best experience.

In Live’s Options menu, there is a new Accessibility entry which contains commands corresponding to different accessibility preferences, such as "Speak Menu Commands" and "Speak Minimum and Maximum Slider Values".

As part of the accessibility implementation, many improvements for keyboard navigation and keyboard workflows have also been added. You can find out more about these updates in the related subsections of the release notes. 

I used to say that it didn't really matter what DAW you chose; just learn it well. Support for vision-impaired folk is where I have to contradict myself and say, that is definitely a deciding factor for DAW choice.

[Annabelle]

2 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Mark's memory is correct. X3 was the first version to support VST3.

Annabelle, is there a compelling reason to update Speakerphone that makes it impractical to just keep using the current version?

What I'm trying to do is load samples from the sample bay, but since I can't see, I'm trying to make that a parameter in the Track Inspector.

[bitflipper]

That's a clever workaround. 

Now that I have re-read your initial post, I see that what you're actually hoping for is a new feature in a future version of Speakerphone, but it will be VST3 only. Hence the Catch-22: you need VST3 support for a particular plugin, but you're stuck at 8.5 due to dependence on your screen reader software. Got it.

I know that Speakerphone has a LOT of IR files, but could there be a manageable short list of the ones you use most? I'm wondering if there might be a way to save them as separate presets, perhaps as track templates. Just thinking out loud.

 

 

[Annabelle]

10 hours ago, bitflipper said:

That's a clever workaround. 

Now that I have re-read your initial post, I see that what you're actually hoping for is a new feature in a future version of Speakerphone, but it will be VST3 only. Hence the Catch-22: you need VST3 support for a particular plugin, but you're stuck at 8.5 due to dependence on your screen reader software. Got it.

I know that Speakerphone has a LOT of IR files, but could there be a manageable short list of the ones you use most? I'm wondering if there might be a way to save them as separate presets, perhaps as track templates. Just thinking out loud.

 

 

I have made some .fxb files of custom presets I've made, but here's another thing I want to make possible. There are samples like city atmospheres, transportation, phone tones, record player noise, crowds and people, and even music, which are loaded into "sample packs". My screenreader can't seem to find where those are in the plugin, as you have to use a mouse to click on them, so I'm wondering if an automated parameter can be made in the track inspector. Or even copy and paste via CTRL=C and CTRL+V from the Windows Explorer into the plugin.

[bitflipper]

I am truly in awe of your ability to navigate the DAW this way. The elaborate mental constructs it must require has got to translate into almost supernatural compositional skills. I'll bet your kitchen is very well-organized, too.

I'm sorry but I have no experience with Speakerphone and can offer no useful advice here. I assume those sample packs are listed in a scrolling tree list, which would make them discoverable via keypress in most Windows applications. However, plugin makers usually ignore Windows conventions and draw everything themselves using a library specifically made for plugin interfaces. If there is a way to work around the limitation outside the plugin, meaning via the Windows file system, that might be your best option.

 

[Annabelle]

48 minutes ago, bitflipper said:

I am truly in awe of your ability to navigate the DAW this way. The elaborate mental constructs it must require has got to translate into almost supernatural compositional skills. I'll bet your kitchen is very well-organized, too.

I'm sorry but I have no experience with Speakerphone and can offer no useful advice here. I assume those sample packs are listed in a scrolling tree list, which would make them discoverable via keypress in most Windows applications. However, plugin makers usually ignore Windows conventions and draw everything themselves using a library specifically made for plugin interfaces. If there is a way to work around the limitation outside the plugin, meaning via the Windows file system, that might be your best option.

 

 

1 hour ago, bitflipper said:

I am truly in awe of your ability to navigate the DAW this way. The elaborate mental constructs it must require has got to translate into almost supernatural compositional skills. I'll bet your kitchen is very well-organized, too.

I'm sorry but I have no experience with Speakerphone and can offer no useful advice here. I assume those sample packs are listed in a scrolling tree list, which would make them discoverable via keypress in most Windows applications. However, plugin makers usually ignore Windows conventions and draw everything themselves using a library specifically made for plugin interfaces. If there is a way to work around the limitation outside the plugin, meaning via the Windows file system, that might be your best option.

 

I'm not sure how that would work. NVDA used to be able to access that part by navigating with the mouse, where it would make beeps with every little move you make, each beep increasing in tone as you move up or down, and even panning from left to right as the mouse moves from side to side. And of course it would tell you where you are with speech. However, I'm not sure how to make it do that again, as I'm not sure if it has something to do with how my screen looks. I know the resolution can only be between 1024*768 and 1280*768. I've tried changing the screen resolution, but that didn't change anything.

[bitflipper]

Could the Narrator feature in Windows 11 address this? Or is it only capable of reading Windows screens?

[Annabelle]

4 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Could the Narrator feature in Windows 11 address this? Or is it only capable of reading Windows screens?

Windows 11? My music machine runs Windows 7!

[Annabelle]

4 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Could the Narrator feature in Windows 11 address this? Or is it only capable of reading Windows screens?

NVDA is Non Visual Desktop Access. https://www.nvaccess.org.

[bitflipper]

Pretty cool software, and free to boot! I presume you've already been in contact with those folks? I see that although the product is free, support is not.

I read a bit of their user manual. It seems to reinforce my theory that the Speakerphone problem is due to the browser section of the UI not being an actual subwindow, but rather drawn directly onto the main UI graphic. You are effectively interacting with a single window, the whole plugin interface being one window. Consequently, there are no standard Windows shortcuts nor NVDA shortcuts that will let you set focus to that portion of the display.

If my hypothesis is correct - and I am not certain it is - you may have to find another product. That'll be tough, since Speakerphone is unique as far as I know. Unless AudioEase can suggest an alternate method for loading presets.

That's what I was thinking when I suggested track templates. If you load Speakerphone with a specific IR file into a track, then save the track as a track template, every time you insert that template into a project it will include the plugin and have that preset/IR preloaded. I do this with complex instruments such as Superior Drummer, so I know it works. However, I do not have 400 presets in Superior Drummer, only 3. At best, the track template workaround would only be practical if there were only a handful of Speakerphone presets that you use regularly. A crude workaround, granted.

Another possible avenue might be a VST3 wrapper, a VST2 plugin the serves as a VST3 host. I found this one, from the people who make the Sequoia DAW: https://www.xlutop.com/buzz/zip/vst3shell_v1.3.1.zip That's a direct link to the plugin. Here's a link to the KVR page: https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=565924

Sorry, this post has been a long stream-of-consciousness speculation dump, but I'm shooting in the dark here, so to speak.

[azslow3]

Unfortunately Speakerphone has no demo, so I can't check myself.  May be worse to ask developers if the new version is JUCE based (most popular framework) and if so they should not forget to check accessibility. Recent JUCE version are accessible.

As I have written before, for the host it is better leave Sonar 8.5. I know that is not easy, even for experienced people. But there is a big community which can help, most REAPER/OSARA users was working with Sonar 8.5 before.

For plug-ins, fortunately there is movement toward native accessibility. JAWS / HSC / SIBIAC scripts for inaccessible plug-ins was fighting against the wall, and once something was developed there was a new version of plug-in and the work was voided.

[mettelus]

1 hour ago, azslow3 said:

As I have written before, for the host it is better leave Sonar 8.5. I know that is not easy, even for experienced people. But there is a big community which can help, most REAPER/OSARA users was working with Sonar 8.5 before.

Thanks for chiming in Alexey. Every time Annabelle posts I can rarely help one iota, but it often sends me on a fact-finding stint regarding accessibility. Most resources I find are older (and reference 8.5 or Reaper), but this is the first I have seen reference to OSARA. Is that a simple add-on installation or are there any other hoops associated with getting it online? I have only used Reaper once years ago, so totally unfamiliar with the nuances of it, but admit that it never falls completely off the radar because of ReaCWP.

My concern here is for steps Annabelle should be aware of rather than just sending her down a blind path that you "know is not that easy." (No offense intended toward you in any way here).