Dirk Ulrich is leaving Native Instruments (not a deal)

[Soundwise]

9 hours ago, Paul P said:

A couple of years ago I moved to a big city (which wasn't far away) and last year discovered a world of bands, ensembles and solo/duo performers that make the rounds in the various burroughs' community centres.  Tickets are mostly free, the most expensive is 13$ in a nicer theatre.  Small venues where you can sit 10ft/3m from the musicians if you get there early.   Styles can anything, jazz, blues, pop, classical, Caribbean, folk.  Mostly local musicians, some with reputations.  All original stuff.

I've been really surprised and impressed by the quality.  These performers are more young than old, mostly in the middle somewhere, so there are still people dedicating thousands of hours of their lives to making very enjoyable music.  It's a real privilege to be entertained by them.  They make it look so easy but having tried I know I'll never have the discipline or the drive to achieve anything remotely close.

Surely, the genuine musicianship has never been and never will be obsolete. However, what used to be mainstream now is niche. Gods vs nerds, stadiums vs small venues? Nah! Fugget about it!

[Soundwise]

8 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

I've seen a number of folks post in this forum, now in this thread, a misperception that the digital music software production industry is declining when every study I've seen in the 12 months (a total of two) indicates that the industry is growing. The below linked study indicates a CAGR of more than 8% . The acquisitions in the industry aren't occurring because the industry is falling apart. The firms making these acquisitions do so because they anticipate growth, not decline. Well managed developers I know are doing well, not suffering. For anyone posting doom and gloom, it's not reality -- fortunately. 

https://www.globalgrowthinsights.com/market-reports/music-production-software-market-100157

Thanks for trying to burst my bubble. Unfortunately, this article just confirms my observations. The industry has ceased to be talent/creativity centered and is focused on music as product, where you can:

• autotune poorly performed vocals;
• quantize out of time playing;
• replace amateurishly played hits/plucks with industry standard samples;
• use all sorts of generators and engines that trigger pieces of arrangement with a single key press.

And then there are

It doesn't indicate total shutdown of the industry, just the end of the era of music creation as we knew it.

[PavlovsCat]

On 3/1/2024 at 1:01 PM, Soundwise said:

I think, new generations - Millennials and especially Zoomers - are not very keen on creating music in old fashion, like it used to be common for old-timers such as ourselves. IMO, that's the main reason why both hardware and software manufacturers face a decline in sales. We are still here, and we still buy their stuff and keep them afloat, but let's face it - the music part of show business is not about innovative records or talent anymore, it's just a craft with a niche demand. Music is just content crafted with little to no passion, soulful expression or extraordinary skills. We already see symptoms of the MI market collapse, so the crumbling down of leading MI software and hardware companies is inevitable.

There's no doubt that like every generation, tastes in music and musical instruments shift. So it's not a giant surprise that there are significantly less accordinists in Gen Z than Boomers. But you stated that there's been a decline in hardware and software sales, when both have actually been growing pretty well (with more than 8% CAGR in music software sales over the past few years). I think you're going off of perception as opposed to research.  I did some quick checks for research. I write as part of my living, so I regularly turn to researchers and research studies and tapped AI to find research on this topic.  An excerpt: "A 2020 YouGov study found that two-thirds of American adults have played a musical instrument at some point in their lives, with younger adults slightly more likely to have played than older adults. A 2023 Gallup poll found that over half of US households have at least one person actively playing a musical instrument, suggesting continued interest in music making. "

Now, you then brought up the MUSIC recording industry. That is and always has been a very different story. The demand for live music definitely appears to be much lower than it was decades ago in the US and Europe.  Then we have record sales, which have radically changed (lessened) from sales levels a few decades ago. Radio is no longer the main source of exposing people to new music. Spotify lists and video games are. So once again, technology has changed the game. Because consumers are not buying physical or even online music -- albums -- as they did decades ago, the music recording industry is all about volume. I don't know about you guys, but I have friends who had limited success in the music industry and they're not making much off of Spotify and other streaming services, because the money isn't there, even if you're getting 1 million streams a year. It's all about volume. Consequently, it's driven the recording industry to be risk averse when it comes to signing and promoting artists. A few months ago I remember reading a Billboard article that rock was surging in popularity and had become the number two most popular genre in the US. But I wouldn't expect record companies to be signing the next Beatles, Radiohead, Yes, or Steely Dan. They're more apt to sign the next Nickelback. Pop music is becoming more like simplistic ad jingles and I don't see that changing, as record companies know that simple music sells to a wider audience. 

But you shouldn't conflate musical hobbyists with record industry signigings and promotions. Look at YouTube and you'll see a wealth of young musicians who play at a level the world hasn't witnessed in pre-web generations. Yes, there are not a lot of accordion players, but there are a heck of a lot of incredibly talented pianists, guitarists, bassists, percussionists, drummers, etc. I come from a family where my mother and eldest sister were music teachers. I was trained on piano, organ, drums and guitar. I have a bunch of friends -- just lost one last week who taught music at a HS and jazz at Purdue University -- whose been responsible for some award winning bands filled with talented young people. My son's college roommate (19 yrs old), is a tuba and trombone player who plays at his college's Big Ten basketball games and football games. Both of my two kids were in school band. My daughter is a talented singer and I go to all of her school performances and one of my friend's daughters is a very talented singer ( a HS freshman) who is doing community theater musicals. I have other friends whose kids play musical instruments. So once again, we have the music recording industry -- which I completely agree with you, they are promoting simplistic, incredibly similar music that sounds like it came from ads. But the doom and gloom you're stating about the collapse of musical instrument companies and musical software companies is incorrect. Both are growing. The recording industry is in trouble. I've worked with a bunch of small record labels back in the day and at least some of them are hanging on, but it's really tough. But that's a completely different story than individuals playing musical instruments, and that is growing. It's not all doom and gloom. Except for the music recording industry, that's toast and all we can do is support live music and the artists we appreciate. But if you're willing to dig a bit, you can still find really talented young acts. I've learned about some really talented new acts from hearing the soundtracks to video games my kids play.  I live in Chicago and, sadly, even local college radio isn't play young unsigned acts like they once did back when I was playing with our band. So it is a lot more challenging to find new acts. But if you dig, you can find them. They're just not getting signed with major labels like the way things used to be. It's been a over a decade since I first heard  one of this band's songs in a video game my son was playing and googled them and became a huge fan. The singer has the kind of vocal talent Jeff Buckley had, with more control.  Bands like this are out there. It's just that we don't have radio stations playing them and people going to record stores to learn about them and buy their music. 
 

 

Edited March 2 by PavlovsCat

[PavlovsCat]

Also @Soundwise, as an example that great musicianship is still alive and well, just not as popular in live venues and in record sales, I present to you, Polyphia. TIm Henson (the guitarist) represents an astounding level of virtuosity and he's savvy enough to write catchy hooks.

Don't go completely sour. Go explore some of the amazing young musicians out there today, you'll be blown away. And I'm sure that you and I can find tons of musicians from the past that we both love too. But the art and craft of music and musicianship isn't dead and gone. Sure, great forms of music aren't popular, but that's been the case for a long time. Young musicians like Tim Henson are taking things forward from a musical standpoint (as a virtuoso guitarist, in his case). I'm certain Jimi Hendrix would love what Henson is doing if he were still around. 
 

 

Edited March 2 by PavlovsCat

[Soundwise]

20 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

But you stated that there's been a decline in hardware and software sales, when both have actually been growing pretty well (with more than 8% CAGR in music software sales over the past few years).

I think, there is a difference between a statement and speculation. Besides that, I was talking about old-school approach to creating music being on decline. Anyway, thank you for providing your expertise in this area and sharing numbers.

25 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

the demand for live music definitely appears to be lower than it was decades ago in the US and Europe. 
[...]

So once again, technology has changed the game.

[...]

Pop music is becoming more like simplistic ad jingles and I don't see that changing, as record companies know that simple music sells to a wider audience. 

[...]

Look at YouTube and you'll see a wealth of young musicians who play at a level the world hasn't witnessed in pre-web generations.

[...]

there are a heck of a lot of incredibly talented pianists, guitarists, bassists, percussionists, drummers, etc.

Beautiful points! I couldn't have put it better!

30 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

But the doom and gloom you're stating about the collapse of musical instrument companies and musical software companies is incorrect.

That's not exactly what I meant, but I agree that generally there's always hope and space for growth.

We don't need to persuade each other, that with abundance of great plugins the demand for hardware processors has significantly lessened throughout the last few decades. With virtual instruments that sound enormously good I hardly need drummers with their batteries of shells and cymbals, bassists, brass and woodwind players, guitarists, you name it. That's obvious.

On the other hand, replacing human performance with machine generated usually makes music sound and feel like ... background noise. At least, that's the way I feel about it. I want pure human performance with all its natural imperfections, direct artist-audience interaction, but what I get is machine precision and casual videos shot in a living room by someone who isn't able to rock their cat or grandma with their perfection and knows nothing about handling the live audience. Yes, they still get their share of popularity, checks with satisfying numbers. People do make money on this. All I'm saying, that the new way of making music is different from what it used to be and those old ways with human element are on decline. I might be wrong, hence there was and is IMO statement in the end.

[Soundwise]

36 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

I present to you, Polyphia. TIm Henson

[...]

Don't go completely sour

[kitekrazy1]

DAW drama

[mibby]

35 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

DAWrama

Fixed. 

-- edit --

BTW, I'm not poking fun at either of you. You're both making some great points. I'm just enjoying the new word.

Edited March 2 by mibby

[kitekrazy1]

22 minutes ago, mibby said:

Fixed. 

-- edit --

BTW, I'm not poking fun at either of you. You're both making some great points. I'm just enjoying the new word.

Hey I like that new word.  Another one I hear is called enshitification.

[PavlovsCat]

6 hours ago, mibby said:

Fixed. 

-- edit --

BTW, I'm not poking fun at either of you. You're both making some great points. I'm just enjoying the new word.

Hey,  I think you know from our conversations, I was enjoying nerding out on this stuff. And you can poke fun at me! I do it all the time. I don't think there was any drama.  I was just trying to provide some friendly encouragement that despite both Soundwise and I being in agreement that most pop music today is formulaic, over- quantizatized and over-tuned, that young people actually still are playing music, that physical musical instrument sales and music software sales are both up. That while the music getting put out by major labels may not be to our liking, that there is still some good to great music being made by young artists and some of them are innovating and pushing instrument performance and technique to new levels. Yes, they're not getting signed on major labels or played on the radio or top Spotify lists or getting millions of streams per month, but they're out there. As Soundwise pointed out, what was once mainstream is now niche. I think that's a true statement.  Although, the truth is, great music often historically hasn't been the popular music of the day. Look back at the charts from whatever you consider the golden era of music and you'll find that some of the best music of the era wasn't the most popular and things have gotten worse in that respect, IMO.  So I agree that the best music being produced today is more difficult to find then in past generations. 

I suppose I'm a bit inspired to have posted, coming from a family of music educators and having recently (last week) lost a friend who was a music educator and musician I used to perform with. It makes me tuned into what younger generations than me are doing musically and informs my perspective and keeps me from being jaded. My points weren't about drama or tension.  They were to encourage based on Soundwise and I sharing a mutual love of music. Hopefully, @Soundwise  sees it as such.  Despite not loving my sentence "not to go sour"! (Which, BTW,  meant  "let's not be too negative about things," as there's a lot beyond pop music to be positive about. I suppose it is a bit risky to use slang in the forum as terms can have different meanings and connotations depending on regions and country.)

Edited March 2 by PavlovsCat

[kevin H]

In my head I imagine Dirk got upset and departed because they finally denied him when he pitched yet again another compressor  ? haha

[Soundwise]

@PavlovsCat, I'm not sure about all possible connotations, but you'd feel the same way had I tried to introduce you to, say, Chopin or Debussy. Tim Henson and Polyphia have been around for more than a decade, and that's a lot. The entire Beatles' discography spans only 7 years, 7½ tops.

Since music is just content, this is a perfect example of using modern tools combined with lots of talent and creativity:

 

 

[PavlovsCat]

2 hours ago, Soundwise said:

@PavlovsCat, I'm not sure about all possible connotations, but you'd feel the same way had I tried to introduce you to, say, Chopin or Debussy. Tim Henson and Polyphia have been around for more than a decade, and that's a lot. The entire Beatles' discography spans only 7 years, 7½ tops.

Since music is just content, this is a perfect example of using modern tools combined with lots of talent and creativity:

 

 

I'm not sure I follow what you mean regarding Chopin and Debussy -- would you mind clarifying?

Are you saying that Polyphia was a poor choice as an example? I realized that you might have been familiar with them; they've been around 14 years. I used them as an example that great musicianship is not only still around,  but these are some very talented musicians out there doing well despite the current state of pop music not being welcoming to much beyond incredibly simplistic pop. Their last album did reach number one on Billboard's top 100 hard rock chart. 

BTW, I find that video you shared pretty amusing! I'll share this video as an example of some true talent doing well today. I actually met and  had a nice chat with one of the song's writers years ago, Dan Wilson, about songwriting and our mutual appreciation for Carole King, who Dan had recently worked with on some songs at the time.

Edited March 3 by PavlovsCat

[Brian Walton]

13 hours ago, kevin H said:

In my head I imagine Dirk got upset and departed because they finally denied him when he pitched yet again another compressor  ? haha

Ironically I just purchased the new Three-Body Technology Cenozoix Compressor as it was the only plugin released in almost a year that caught my attention as a valuable addition.  

(granted I didn't pay close to retail thanks to a forever 29 I'd been sitting on something worthwhile to use for)