Vocal double compression

[Simple Verse]

Hi

any idea how to achieve similar results with Cakewalk plug ins as this video demonstrates with hardware compressors? It's about vocal compression with two compressors using different settings for both, subtle and more stronger.

At least the 1176 emulator is available, but how to substitute the other one and how to set them correctly? What ever the case I find it a bit hard to grasp the whole point in doing this. Doesn't the harder one overrun the more subtle one anyway?

 Thanks!

[Glenn Stanton]

the staging of the hardware versions help even out the peaks and can add some volume to lower sounds. the idea partly is to prevent clipping (in the video the dbx166), and provide steady enough signal to clear over any circuit noise (which with digital tends to be low although room noise and cheap mics etc can all contribute).

for in-the-box, you have to prevent clipping before you capture the signal (unless you have a compressor on the mic side or a nice preamp which is more graceful when presented with louder signals), and then you can use the internal compressors to "level" the track - reduce peaks and increase lower volume (makeup gain) -- with the caveat that you can use just about any compressor you want really as long as you can control the essentials - input level, output level, and preferably attack and release. you could use 2 1176 - one set to soft and one set to hard. and you can flip the order to see which has the best effect on your track (or buss).

 

[AB9]

A lot of times two hardware compressors are used for at least two reasons:

1.  Sometimes it is great to have one fast compressor like an 1176 type that tames the peaks and the second compressor is set with a slower attack and at extra smoothness and sometimes color - like a great tube comp.

2.  Sometimes two hardware compressors are used because some compressors sound better with lighter compression, and two units set with lighter compression equal more compression with a better sound.

Does this apply to plugins?   I think so.  By the way, my favorite color plugin comp is the TDR Molet GE.  It sounds so analog and smooth for a plugin!

Edited January 24 by Alan Bachman

[Craig Anderton]

These "perfect" vocal sound videos rub me the wrong way. Are they about your voice? Your mic? Your music? Your input levels? Do they even talk about how much the optimum attack time relates to the musical genre?  (And if they really all are describing how to do a "perfect" vocal, wouldn't they all recommend the exact same technique?)

I hardly ever use compression anymore, I use gain/clip envelope DSP to take out peaks, and add a little limiting. I do this with Cakewalk, Studio One, and Pro Tools. But I would never be so arrogant as to say it's the perfect way to record your vocals. It's the perfect way to record my vocals. Here's an excerpt from a tip I wrote for Studio One about Why I Don't Use Compression Anymore, but it applies 100% to Cakewalk. In fact. I first wrote about this technique in my book of Cakewalk tips.

 

Replacing Vocal Compression

Compression keeps vocals front and center by restricting dynamics, so the soft parts don’t get lost. But there’s a better option. Gain Envelopes and normalization allow tailoring vocal dynamics any way you want—without attack or release times, pumping, breathing, overshoot, or other artifacts. The sound is just as present and capable of being upfront in a mix as if it’s compressed. However, the vocal retains clarity and a natural vibe, because gain envelopes and normalization have no more effect on the sound than changing a channel fader’s level (fig. 2).

Figure 2: A typical vocal, before and after using a Gain Envelope to edit the level for more consistency.

Even better, while you’re editing you can also tweak mouth clicks, pops, and breaths in a way that compressors cannot. I’ve covered using Gain and Event Envelopes before, so for more info, check out the video Get Better Vocals with Gain Envelopes. Also, see the blog post Better Vocals with Phrase-by-Phrase Normalization.

I’m not the world’s greatest vocalist by any means, yet people invariably comment on how much they like my vocals. Perhaps much of that is due to not using compression, so my voice sounds natural and connects more directly with listeners.

 

 

The bottom line is I don't like the sound of compression. But other people do. That's why the best thing you can do is play around with compressors, limiters, DSP, and find what best communicates your vocal sound in the way that fits your music. 

/rant

 

[mettelus]

9 hours ago, Simple Verse said:

Doesn't the harder one overrun the more subtle one anyway?

Be VERY careful about making assumptions like this. This comment stuck out for me so much that it is worth jacking the brakes on for a second. In order to use compression, you need to understand compression... how it functions, when to use it, and when it can become your worst enemy. This link is a good reference, and particularly of note is the "Anatomy of a Compressor" graphic near the top. It is good to get intimately familiar with those parameters, and they are common to any compressor (whether you have adjustments for them or not).

To Alan's point, a "heavy" compressor is typically to tame plosives or spikes, and often set with high thresholds and high ratios (similar to a limiter), just enough to bring those spikes down into a reasonable range without affecting the "core" audio. After that, a "lighter" compressor with a lower threshold and low ratio (typically 2:1 maximum) would be used to even out the bulk of the audio content, and is often used to then feed more elements of an FX chain (which in turn can have thresholds as well). As Craig mentioned, this is highly dependent on the actual material, what you are trying to achieve, and what the rest of any FX is doing.

To the points above, it is worth reiterating that there is no "one size fits all" solution. Just be cautious of this mindset.

****

As to what options to use, that can be 100% personal preference. Several months ago someone had asked for vocal help with the caveat of buying nothing new. For her situation, TDR Nova was used, in addition to CbB's Sonitus Multiband. For free options, Nova has the advantage of being a dynamic compressor (as well as the visual aid of seeing the output as you make adjustments), and Sonitus Multiband was useful on a sibilant issue she was facing. Again, everything is content-specific, so learn to reach for the right tools for the job at hand and adjust accordingly.

[AB9]

I should mention that if I use compression while recording a track - I use light compression - even if I use two compressors - one for peaks and often one for tone.  For instance, I use a Wes Audio N76 (1176 type) for peaks and a Highland Dynamics for tone and some extra smoothness.  But both compressors are set with very little compression.  And it depends on the singer whether to use it at all.

Some also blend compression with no compression.

Using no compression can work too, as Craig points out above.  Craig - it would be nice if there was a way to have Cakewalk, or a plugin, automatically adjust the envelopes, so that all one has to do as is check them out and maybe make some tweaks from the application of the auto envelope adjuster.  And some are able to ride the faders if a mixer is involved.  However, sometimes it is nice to have something capture peaks if a recording session is tight timewise and one needs to capture something without fear of overload distortion on a track.  

Everyone is different which makes all of this more fun imho.

 

Edited January 24 by Alan Bachman

[Glenn Stanton]

one of the nice features of Melodyne - you can adjust levels across the selected nodes - bring up lower volume ones, and turn down louder ones as a means of balancing the overall volume. as well as doing some de-essing and note corrections. then use compression (or limiting etc) to get that final finish.

lately, i've been using the Kramer PIE compressor w/ ~2-3db compression to glue backing vocals. it seems "clean" but it does have "something" which lately just seems to be working well for me. https://www.waves.com/plugins/kramer-pie-compressor

Edited January 24 by Glenn Stanton

[Will.]

23 hours ago, Simple Verse said:

Hi

any idea how to achieve similar results with Cakewalk plug ins as this video demonstrates with hardware compressors? It's about vocal compression with two compressors using different settings for both, subtle and more stronger.

At least the 1176 emulator is available, but how to substitute the other one and how to set them correctly? What ever the case I find it a bit hard to grasp the whole point in doing this. Doesn't the harder one overrun the more subtle one anyway?

 Thanks!

Look at it this way. One is to tame the peaks and the other one is to glue it in the mix. 

You can achieve the same results by using the same compressor. It wont give you the same character as analog gear, but wil give the same results Warren is explaining here. He is a great buddy. 

Edited January 24 by Will.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

One thing to bear in mind if you're dasiy chaining compressors.

The ratio settings that you dial in will in effect be multiplied 

So if your first comp is set at 5:1 and your 2nd at 3:1, the overall effect on the signal is 15:1

[mettelus]

4 hours ago, Alan Bachman said:

it would be nice if there was a way to have Cakewalk, or a plugin, automatically adjust the envelopes, so that all one has to do as is check them out and maybe make some tweaks from the application of the auto envelope adjuster.

This was actually a side issue in the situation I had mentioned above. She had had minimal exposure to recording/DAW usage and not developed an ear for listening at that point, so I found myself constantly searching for visual aids to drive explanations home. I ended up having her Bounce to Track(s) fairly frequently when she started out so that she could visually see those changes on her own till she developed an ear for them. Barring a few exceptions, waveform changes due to tweaks, and especially FX, can only be visualized by baking them in on a Bounce to Track(s). For real-time monitoring, SPAN is also a good tool to monitor changes since you can use instances side-by-side to "straddle" the FX in question, as well as it being light-weight enough that you can use it pretty much anywhere and everywhere you need to "see" in a project.

[Will.]

5 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

One thing to bear in mind if you're dasiy chaining compressors.

The ratio settings that you dial in will in effect be multiplied 

So if your first comp is set at 5:1 and your 2nd at 3:1, the overall effect on the signal is 15:1

Not quite true. Your threshold, attack and release compensate how the compressors uses its ratio. You can get a -1dB GR on a 8:1 ratio. Even a -14dB with a 2:1 ratio.

Its all about what works for you to catch all your peaks with that specific track. 

[Craig Anderton]

11 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

it seems "clean" but it does have "something" which lately just seems to be working well for me.

Yes! The original was one of the few compressors with a pulse width modulation-based design. It's super-fast. I thought it was weird because it didn't have an attack control, but then I realized that it didn't really need one in the conventional sense.

[Glenn Stanton]

8 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

Yes! The original was one of the few compressors with a pulse width modulation-based design. It's super-fast. I thought it was weird because it didn't have an attack control, but then I realized that it didn't really need one in the conventional sense.

yeah, it's listed often as "clean" but there is definitely some character there so i've been using it on vocals when i don't want too much character but i want some colorization and yet clean smooth response. i've had it for a while but never really tried it out until after some backing vocals sounded "saturated" with my usual suspects. i popped this on in and suddenly, voila! it was right on the money. put it into my record and mix templates and moved along.

PWM is definitely a unique technique for a compressor, normal something we equate with digital circuits but implemented in analog circuits (to be fair, it's all transistors etc no matter how small)...

[AB9]

Great River makes a nice PWM compressor: https://vintageking.com/great-river-pwm-501?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqsitBhDlARIsAGMR1RgXLhPcO6TBqU4N1KjLZ5nksQIrWBDJd2ftpMciuxKJdJniPIqhwUAaAqqnEALw_wcB

Dan Kennedy of Great River is a great guy (no pun intended), and he is also known for some really clean mic pres that were awesome for acoustic music.  (The original Great River mic pres.)

Buzz Audio makes amazing opto compressors that are also really nice on vocals and not intended to be mojo type compressors and very clean.  Same with David Hill of blessed memory with his Titan compressor.

David Hill at NAMM used his Titan compressor on grand piano and I was amazed at how well it did while still retaining all the grand piano detail - of which I am a fuss nut about.

But as Craig indicated (I think), the cleanest is to adjust the envelopes.  And I would add - to ride the faders.  I am just not that good at it.   And I just like equipment - perhaps too much!

 

[Simple Verse]

Thanks for the insights everyone. In my case I have some recorded vocals I ordered through Fiverr and I'm not sure if the singers used any compression in recording them. Maybe I should ask. And as this tip is obviously meant for the recording phase I might not need to think about it. De-esser, one compressor and/or manual adjustment as Craig explained would do it for the peaks I guess. Or another trick is the parallel compression, that is meant for mixing stage, could be one to consider. Any ideas on that? Do people use it on EDM?

[Will.]

2 hours ago, Simple Verse said:

Thanks for the insights everyone. In my case I have some recorded vocals I ordered through Fiverr and I'm not sure if the singers used any compression in recording them. Maybe I should ask. And as this tip is obviously meant for the recording phase I might not need to think about it. De-esser, one compressor and/or manual adjustment as Craig explained would do it for the peaks I guess. Or another trick is the parallel compression, that is meant for mixing stage, could be one to consider. Any ideas on that? Do people use it on EDM?

We use different kind of compression in EDM. Again, an RnB approach even a Jazz approach will work depending on the track. Sometimes compression isnt needed. 

Its what works for you through what your monitors tell you whats in your tracks. 

[Max Arwood]

Pie is certainly colored! Try a little on your percussion bus! I frequently put it on the bus along with Kramer HLS (With a little preamp boost). Just sayin' - I put them in my saturation section of my bus.

[Simple Verse]

20 hours ago, Will. said:

We use different kind of compression in EDM. Again, an RnB approach even a Jazz approach will work depending on the track. Sometimes compression isnt needed. 

Its what works for you through what your monitors tell you whats in your tracks. 

Do you mean this trick for EDM? 

 

[Will.]

8 hours ago, Simple Verse said:

Do you mean this trick for EDM? 

 

You don't always have/need to sidechain the reverb. There's NO "secret effect." That lush reverb effect does not always work on every vocal EDM track. Sometimes only a delay is needed. It all depends on the track. You can easily destroy your vocals with compression if it's not needed.  Just because your favorite singer/rapper uses a certain effect - does not mean it will work for you. We use certain effects to fill up the track and if the body is already full and round, using this effect might eat up and muddy up your track - ruining it. Even though it's meant to clean up the vocals. 

In the end it all comes down to your taste and approach to what works for the mix/track. If it is not needed WHY use it? ?

Edited January 28 by Will.

[Simple Verse]

20 hours ago, Will. said:

You don't always have/need to sidechain the reverb. There's NO "secret effect." That lush reverb effect does not always work on every vocal EDM track. Sometimes only a delay is needed. It all depends on the track. You can easily destroy your vocals with compression if it's not needed.  Just because your favorite singer/rapper uses a certain effect - does not mean it will work for you. We use certain effects to fill up the track and if the body is already full and round, using this effect might eat up and muddy up your track - ruining it. Even though it's meant to clean up the vocals. 

In the end it all comes down to your taste and approach to what works for the mix/track. If it is not needed WHY use it? ?

Am I correct assuming this trick is rather modern thing? I don't think they used this back in the 90's in euro dance? Or what you think? Any sample tracks where this might have been applied during that era?