[Glitch?] Process > Apply Effect > Gain - Not Working??

[sjoens]

1. Manually set 2 vocal tracks to -6 dB using Process > Apply Effect > Gain function to each audio segment in the track and bounced the entire track.

2. Verified both track levels by replaying them and meters held consistent at -6 dB.

3. Saved project and closed CbB.

4. Opened project the next day and found the track's audio fluctuating from -9dB to -4dB.

So how is this function supposed to work?

Edited December 27, 2023 by sjoens

[mettelus]

4 hours ago, sjoens said:

Opened project the next day and found the track's audio fluctuating from -9dB to -4dB.

Might need more clarification on this. Applying gain does just that, so the dynamic range of the track will remain intact. When you said "held consistent at -6dB," that seems more like a limiter/heavy compressor function. Unless you drive a signal into a ceiling, it will retain the fluctuations of the original.

[sjoens]

Right. In this case I adjusted each clip manually so it would register -6 ish on the playback meter and the entire track played like it had a limiter set to -6 on it.  I forgot to say it was done with the track's fader at unity gain (0).  Then today when I played the track the meters were way off, like I never adjusted them at all.

I'm also noticing meter inconstancies.  The CV peak meter and the TV peak meter are not displaying the same values until I click one of them to reset it.

Edited December 27, 2023 by sjoens

[mettelus]

Gotcha. I have noticed a few inconsistencies with things, but rarely use any of the processes other than normalization from time to time (even that has an issue of not allowing you to type "-" in front of the number, and all values must be negative, or zero, nice "feature"). Unless you are specifically looking to find issues, things like clip gain (CTRL-left drag up/down on clips) or using a limiter and then baking it might be better alternatives. The clip gain with a mouse is probably fastest in your scenario.

[David Baay]

10 hours ago, sjoens said:

The CV peak meter and the TV peak meter are not displaying the same values until I click one of them to reset it.

Numeric Peak indicators hold whatever peak level is reached until they're reset or playback is restarted. If you're looking at the same track in the TV and CV, and only starting/stopping playback with no other change in the project state, it's hard to imagine how they would get out of sync. But if any sends or buses are involved, switching mute/solo/send/interleave states or gain/volume during playback could get things out of sync depending on the routing. Arming a track or otherwise changing where the meter is picking up the signal (i.e. pre/post-fader) can also produce unexpected results.

Regarding the change in metering overnight, I would be inclined to think you were simply mistaken about the state of the project when you saved iand/or what you were looking at, and what you're seeing now is accurately reflecting the current stae of the bounced audio and metering settings But it's also possible that some FX plugin was reset to initial conditions on being reloaded and isn't producing the same result it was before because it's not linear phase or something like that. You might get a better idea of what happened by importing the three generations of clips (as-recorded, after applying gain, after bouncing together) from the audio folder into separate tracks of a new project and seeing how they compare.

This is a case where the problem would need to be captured on video or by sharing steps to reproduce it in a new project in order to fully understand what's happening.

All I know is that just about every time I've encountered a situation in which levels were unexpected, it turned out I was misunderstanding something about the routing or looking at the wrong meter. It happens easily.

[sjoens]

Guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.  Both tracks are dry and routed directly to the interface, no FX or bus involved.  Technically I was manually "normalizing" them by bringing low passages up to -6ish and high ones down to -6ish to see if it could be done.  But results don't seem consistent.  I'm certainly no expert and it may be just what it is.  Just seems odd to me.

I said CV and TV meters but out of sync meters  may be due to an Inspector glitch.  Will double check it later.

Thanks for weighing in.

[sjoens]

Later:  Today everything seems right, so can't say what the past 2 days were all about.

Another anomaly that seems to have corrected itself is one track meter that gave an uneven stereo level until today.

These are both mono tracks, recorded mono, interleave set to mono, so I didn't understand why one gave a split level.  Now it's fine.
yesterday:             today:
   

[CSistine]

8 hours ago, sjoens said:

Later:  Today everything seems right, so can't say what the past 2 days were all about.

Another anomaly that seems to have corrected itself is one track meter that gave an uneven stereo level until today.

These are both mono tracks, recorded mono, interleave set to mono, so I didn't understand why one gave a split level.  Now it's fine.
yesterday:             today:
   

Such things happened to me only with MONO Vst-Instrument tracks that I had bounced in place. Though sometimes it helped to reload the project. With mono VSTi tracks I had regularily such problems, why I switched to bounce to new track then, that gave really another result!

[msmcleod]

Something to bear in mind: When you apply gain, you're applying gain to the clip. The meters however show the output of the track post fader.

So anything that is happening on the track - e.g: Track Input Gain, FX in the Pro Channel or FX Bin, or Volume / Volume automation will affect what you see in the meter.

Also, be clear what "Apply Effect->Gain"  by -6 is actually doing:  it's reducing the volume of the clip by -6db.   This is not the same as "setting" it to -6db.  The only time this would be the case, would be if the complete clip was at 0db.

[sjoens]

Yep. I brought the clips "to" -6 dB.  And as the 2 pics above show, the tracks are peaking at -6.

I'm hoping these were just momentary glitches, tho I still see the meter discrepancy once in a while.  Seems the Inspector meter lags behind a bit now and then.

Edited December 28, 2023 by sjoens

[John Vere]

I used to do what you are doing. I don’t look at the meter I use the peak and hold numbers. 
I worked in small sections which more or less are one line of the lyrics. 
I have the G shortcut key to open the Gain dialogue. 
I would drag over the quiet parts and add a few db of gain. Play the part and observe the meter peaks. It was more of a visual editing process looking at the waveform to find quiet parts as well as listening to understanding the lyrics in the mix. When done I would print the track by exporting it, then I learned about bouncing to clip. This was a lot of work! 
 

Now it’s easy.  
 I discovered a levelling tool in Melodyne which is brilliant and became part of my new workflow. 
It has 2 sliders one to bring up quiet parts and then one to lower the loud parts. 
It’s percentage based and I’m using around 70% on each. 

The results are I can toss the compressor and limiter in the trash bin. Well. I still use them as watchdogs. 
Im not sure at what version level of Melodyne this is included as I had it in the Editor version and I just upgraded to Studio. It’s on sale for a few more days if you need to upgrade. Best $99 I ever spent.  

And now I can work on harmonies all in one view. 

So all the tools you need to work on vocals are right there just like you’re working with midi in PRV. If used correctly there’s no noticeable artifacts. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by John Vere

[sjoens]

Thanks John.  This was more of an experiment to see how it all works, than routine workflow.

According to Celemony, the "Leveling Macro" is part of v5.  I still use v4 so may look into it.

[John Vere]

Now is the time to upgrade   They do it every year at this time. Each of my upgrades was from the free version that came with Sonar Platinum. It’s always $99. So I’m into it for $300( $400?)  now and have Studio. 

[John Bradley]

Yeah, what John said. I upgraded to Melodyne Studio several years ago, and I don't regret a cent of it. Best money I've ever spent at the DAW Thing. 

The ability to work with multiple tracks simultaneously is so critical. I use it on everything I actually record, both vocals and guitars. (Everything else I do in PRV.)

Vocals: adjusting lead vocals, and tightening up timing and fixing (or creating new) harmonies. (You can get away with a lot on backing vocal tracks.)

Guitars: tightening up timing on multi-guitar rhythm tracks and leads, cutting out any noise between 'chugs', and occasionally tweaking a lead note. I record guitars dry and do the amp sim in-the-box, so even if any artifacts are introduced, they get crushed by the distortion applied afterwards.

 

[David Baay]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:03 AM, sjoens said:

I still see the meter discrepancy once in a while.  Seems the Inspector meter lags behind a bit now and then.

Never seen anything like that. Would be interested in seeing a project or steps to create one that reproduces it.

[sjoens]

Very rare and maybe project specific.  Along with the uneven L&R mono track meter.

Edited December 30, 2023 by sjoens

[msmcleod]

11 hours ago, sjoens said:

Very rare and maybe project specific.  Along with the uneven L&R mono track meter.

Most likely your meter settings are different between the track view and inspector view.  The meter settings can be set separately for Track View, Console View and Inspector.

Setting one to pre fader and the other to post fader will almost certainly give this result.

[sjoens]

Thanks, I'll check.

[sjoens]

All meters are set "Peak" and "Post Fader" which I assume is default as I never mess with them.

This is the only track/project I noticed it in, so will be looking closer from now on to see if it happens more often.