Drum programming shortcuts/alternatives?

[BassMasterGeneral]

Sorry again for having 2 threads so quickly. I was also wondering if anyone could tell me any decent shortcuts for using the drum map (as opposed to the piano roll) as in particular using the lasso tool is a bit of a pain when dealing with a big kit & long sequences. It's there any 3rd party plug ins for that sort of thing? I can live with it but just find it all a bit fidgety, but I'm pretty new to using it so maybe there's just some shortcuts to learn? I also find editing velocity a bit of a pain, especially not being able to enter a value when you're drawing, instead of having to edit notes after you've drawn them.

 

Thanks!

[HOOK]

Not sure what you're asking, specifically.  Are you asking for help building a drum map?

As far as drum velocity goes, I personally find it easier to adjust velocity after I've created parts.  I just look at it as a secondary creative process.  If I try to do them both at the same time (while manually entering notes instead of playing an electronic drum kit), I feel like it gets in the way of my creativity.  I can largely ignore the dynamics while I'm creating - knowing I'm going to back to do that once all the parts are right.

And adjusting velocity from the drum map view is way easier than adjusting it from the piano roll view.

[reginaldStjohn]

By "Drum Map" do you mean the drum view in the piano roll view rather then the normal piano roll view where the note lengths are shown? Or are wanting help with "drum Maps" which is a related, but, different thing?

[Colin Nicholls]

12 hours ago, Rob Gilbert said:

I was also wondering if anyone could tell me any decent shortcuts for using the drum map

I have written about the Drum Map in Cakwalk/Sonar before:
https://prodigalsounds.com/blog/2021/05/04/drum-maps-in-cakewalk/

[JnTuneTech]

One procedure that has sped things up in drum MIDI editing, for me over the years, was the move to putting most of the primary kit piece programming on separate MIDI tracks. -Either after the initial note entry, or even before, as often I will be transcribing from an audio track, and doing it part by part, -That is my method of choice, but it all really has to be done which ever way fits your own workflow of course.

When using the PRV for drum programming, I most often rely on note mapping via instrument definitions, and so each track can have its own map, and can even be customized with some prep work. Drum maps can work in a similar way, and take just about as much work to set up, but I still like to use standard PRV note view for most acoustic-style drum programming, as many samplers may actually make use of differing note length values for some instruments.

Again though, it varies - it's highly dependent on your workflow needs. For instance, programming drum-machine style instrumentation using drum notation view or the drum map setup can actually work better than the single-track method I use for acoustic-style sample use. So, the best shortcuts can vary depending on many factors.

[David Baay]

This is a huge topic with many alternative approaches, but I'd recommend you try the Step Sequencer. there will be a slight learning curve, but I think it will rapidaly become faster for you than the PRV. If it needs additional tweaking, you can convert the Step Sequencer clip to an ordinary MIDI clip and work on it in the PRV later.

https://gaga.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Views.12.html

This is an ancient tutorial series, and uses Session Drummer, but it covers everything you need to know, step by step:

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by David Baay

[BassMasterGeneral]

Thanks for all the help, it is indeed the actual notating of drums that I'm finding a little cumbersome. I'd tried the step sequencer however it's had a limit of 64 steps when I've used it, and chopping songs into smaller sections doesn't seem to have rectified this, so not sure if something is missing there? I kinda wanted to just have everything to the grid, and have some vague control over velocity expression by painting in notes at lower/higher values, then humanising it all when I'm done to make things feel a little less robotic. I thought the step sequencer would be ideal for that, as keeping stuff to the grid is very very easy, and it has things like adding repetitions etc so can easily bang in a load of 1/4 notes and then put some lesser emphasis on the off beats with a different articulation etc. 

 

At the moment I'm half tempted to go back to the god awful UI of my Boss DR880 for the purpose of programming, then recording the MIDI and then fine tuning stuff in cakewalk. I'm not sure if I'm maybe just being a little inpatient and need to get used to various shortcuts for different snap settings/cutting & pasting etc, and I have set up a few keyboard shortcuts to try to make it a little easier, but it seems a real chore doing it the way I am atm!

[HOOK]

Rob - are you planning on manually entering these drum parts with a mouse, using a midi controller (keyboard), or are you going to be using an electronic drum kit?

I know some people like step sequencing.  I can't stand it precisely because it reminds me of using my old Boss DR-660.  ?

I picked up an Alesis Nitro kit a couple years ago and it changed everything about doing midi drums.  So much easier to get ideas out that actually feel like my style.

 

[BassMasterGeneral]

Pretty much whatever is closest to step sequencing would be ideal, I like the work flow of programming something, then copy & pasting it, then making little alterations to it afterwards and building on it with some variations. I think if I get more comfortable with copying & pasting and making little markers for various sections then I'll be a little more comfortable, but for now I find it all a bit of a pain in the *****! The DR isn't the best though you're right haha, I had a drumbrute and loved that as a sequencer for a while (despite not making any sort of EDM style music, I'm currently working on a surf/hardcore punk thing atm) just because of it being really tactile tapping in sequ3nces and stuff, but that was when I was just doing hardware only stuff for something totally different.

Maybe I just need to stop being lazy and just tap stuff in and work from there, because I quite enjoy a bit of finger drumming! I just wanted to know if there was any 3rd party plugins for MIDI programming etc.

[HOOK]

Cool.   Step sequencing isn't my thing but I'm sure there are plenty of folks here who can help you with that.

It may be helpful for me to add that you can chop, drag and paste the midi file in sections from within the tracks pane.  I color code each section and move them around a lot.  Gives me a visual representation of which part is where in time.  Now...someone else here may be very familiar with the Arranger functions in Cakewalk.  It's cool.   Doesn't work for how I do things, but it sort of sounds like it might be useful for what you do.

Good luck.

[John Vere]

I’ve used them all as I started in 1985 with a Roland 505. So a basic step sequencer.  
Next  I  got my Atari DrT KCS  and a Korg Poly800 which was only velocity 64.  I had to learn how to edit in what is now the event list in Cakewalk. I created about 200 backing tracks which I still have the original midi files for. 

Still with the Atari in mid 90’s I bought a Roland P200 controller which had full velocity. So this was a breakthrough as now my parts could be played with proper dynamics and to this day it is my preferred method of creating drums.  You get real good at it just like any instrument.  
I also own a Yamaha digital kit but my playing is worse on that and velocities and timing are all wrong so it’s 3 times the editing. 

Not a fan of metronome so I often draw the pattern that has the correct feel for the song in the step sequencer.  thanks to my 505 knowledge, this creates a short midi clip and you just drag it out to fill in to end of song. 
You need to bounce this to be able to edit it. 
I carry on and get the other parts done and at some point come back and work this into a convincing part. 
Lots of options for this. 
Example delete the snare and re play it on the controller. 
Last thing I would ever do is waste time manually drawing nots. I just re enter using controller and then go in and edit. 
I don’t fuss a lot with having a zillion velocities. Just the basics. 
Like above mentioned Surf beat that’s snare on 2_and.  With the and being softer. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by JohnnyV

[msmcleod]

You should check out MT Power Drum Kit:  https://www.powerdrumkit.com/

Not only does it sound great, it's free and has a bunch of grooves you can drag on to your track then edit in the PRV.

[David Baay]

3 hours ago, JohnnyV said:

Last thing I would ever do is waste time manually drawing nots. I just re enter using controller and then go in and edit. 

Same here. I omitted my usual advice to get a basic keyboard controller and start learning  to do real-time MIDI recording. Even having to edit the worst imaginable beginner performance will probably be faster and yield a groovier result than entering everything on the grid with fixed velocity using a mouse and then trying to "humanize" it. I was already a pretty capable keyboard player when I came to MIDI so it was natural to record drum parts from the keyboard like everything else. But even a rank beginner shouldn't have too much trouble laying down a kick and snare, hats, toms, cymbals and percussion (More Cowbell!) in stages.

[BassMasterGeneral]

Yeah I'll probably give it a go, just with the nature of the stuff I'm doing it's pretty fast at times, and there's no way I can play tightly enough never mind getting decent dynamics with it! I might just play it in with some quantisation and then mess on with it. I'm also doing another recording project (at some point) which is very much the opposite, and everything is pretty slow & messy which I really enjoy playing myself & layering patterns up, then editing after if needs be - but double time stuff at high tempos with fast snare rolls and techy ride patterns isn't something I'm up to!!!

Ta for all the advice btw!

[mettelus]

21 hours ago, Rob Gilbert said:

I'd tried the step sequencer however it's had a limit of 64 steps when I've used it, and chopping songs into smaller sections doesn't seem to have rectified this, so not sure if something is missing there?

It has been a while since I have used this, but there is a trick to copy/pasting parts so that they are not linked to the same SS instance. I forget how that is done offhand, but you can link the SS to separate variations in the song (to modify them all as a "group") as well as paste them as simple MIDI clips. IIRC, you can also grab MIDI clips and open them in the SS for editing.

BFD also launched a free player that in in the Deals subforum now if interested. A lot of what you are seeking is baked into most of the drum VSTis on the market today, and there are a handful of good free ones available).

[David Baay]

6 hours ago, mettelus said:

It has been a while since I have used this, but there is a trick to copy/pasting parts so that they are not linked to the same SS instance.

Yes, I'm pretty sure the video series l linked covers that.