Cymbal choke with key aftertouch events

[rin]

First ever post...be gentle lol

I have an Alesis Surge Mesh SE drum kit, connected to my laptop via USB. The kit is working fine in Cakewalk, except for the cymbal choke function. I can see aftertouch events firing when I press the cymbal edge, but I cannot figure out how to get those events to actually choke the cymbals. I have a drum map set up with each piece of the electric kit set to it's own channel for EQ.

[rin]

Eurika I have found a solution! Steve Slate drums has a free plugin that supports aftertouch events!

https://stevenslatedrums.com/ssd5/#SSD5FREE

I will also attach my kit preset and mappings for Cakewalk for the Alesis Surge Mesh SE kit.

Thanks for everyone's help!

basic-kit-with-choke.ssd5kit alesis surge mesh se.iom

Edited October 3, 2023 by rin

[Starship Krupa]

The first question has to be about what virtual instrument you're trying to control. The instrument has to be able to interpret key aftertouch events as cymbal chokes for it to work. It looks like your pads are putting the events out correctly and that Cakewalk is recording them correctly, so the next place to look is at the instrument.

It looks like it might be the Studio Drums that comes with Cakewalk? If so, it's possible that it's not able to interpret key aftertouch as choking. It's a pretty simple instrument.

[mettelus]

Most cymbal chokes that I have seen are often their own key switch (MIDI note) within the sound module. I just took a look at the manual and it doesn't seem to identify the actual switch though, so I am a bit baffled. When recording MIDI into Cakewalk from the kit with the choke firing properly, it should also be recorded. You might need to check the Event List for that track after recording some MIDI to find details on what MIDI the kit is passing out. It is possible (although I would think highly unlikely), that it is only processing the choke internal to the module, but not being able to find info on that in the manual is concerning. I also did a quick search for a key switch list, and it only returned sites selling the product.

[sjoens]

Most drum synths chokes are triggered by a closed or pedal hat sample one or two notes away from the open hat note.  The open hat note will play until the closed hat note is played.  Try following note 46 with 42 or 44.

pg 38 of your manual:

Edited October 3, 2023 by sjoens

[sjoens]

Sorry mettelus, I was typing when you posted.

[mettelus]

11 minutes ago, sjoens said:

Sorry mettelus, I was typing when you posted.

Is all good, you actually found it!

[Starship Krupa]

4 hours ago, sjoens said:

Most drum synths chokes are triggered by a closed or pedal hat sample one or two notes away from the open hat note.  The open hat note will play until the closed hat note is played.  Try following note 46 with 42 or 44.

That's what we usually think of when we hear someone talk about "choking" with MIDI cymbals, but having one note cut off another note's sustain isn't what @rin is having trouble with.

If I have it correctly, rin has an electronic drum kit that supports transmits key aftertouch when the player physically pinches the edge of the cymbal pad. This lets them do a move that drummers do where they whack a (usually splash or crash) cymbal with a stick, then quickly stop or mute the cymbal by grabbing the edge with the fingers of the other hand.

This is different from the hi-hat (or triangle) type of choking. A drum VSTi would have to be able to interpret key aftertouch correctly for this to work. I suspect that Cakewalk's Studio Drums isn't sophisticated enough to interpret aftertouch messages and turn them into cymbal chokes.

[rin]

51 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

That's what we usually think of when we hear someone talk about "choking" with MIDI cymbals, but having one note cut off another note's sustain isn't what @rin is having trouble with.

If I have it correctly, rin has an electronic drum kit that supports transmits key aftertouch when the player physically pinches the edge of the cymbal pad. This lets them do a move that drummers do where they whack a (usually splash or crash) cymbal with a stick, then quickly stop or mute the cymbal by grabbing the edge with the fingers of the other hand.

This is different from the hi-hat (or triangle) type of choking. A drum VSTi would have to be able to interpret key aftertouch correctly for this to work. I suspect that Cakewalk's Studio Drums isn't sophisticated enough to interpret aftertouch messages and turn them into cymbal chokes.

Yeah I'm trying to choke crash cymbals with a pinch of the pad, this is not hi-hat related. So if I understand right, the kit has to support aftertouch events, the DAW has too, and the VST plugin has too. Any recommendations on drum plugins that do support aftertouch? If I plug my kit into my BFD Player app the cymbal choke functions work.

[Keni]

13 minutes ago, rin said:

Yeah I'm trying to choke crash cymbals with a pinch of the pad, this is not hi-hat related. So if I understand right, the kit has to support aftertouch events, the DAW has too, and the VST plugin has too. Any recommendations on drum plugins that do support aftertouch? If I plug my kit into my BFD Player app the cymbal choke functions work.

No. Not necessarily.

It needs to have a method of doing this.

The most popular/common is to have actual sample/event assigned to a specific key. So I would scour the manufacturer’s keymap. It’s easy to miss finding on many maps. I myself constantly lose my place in Superior Drummer’s map which I find I don’t like it’s organization, but you get used to it with time.

 

Often a workaround for most drum software can be to insert a zero-velocity event where desired. Not always effective. Depending on re-trigger settings, one can turn off the previous when overlapped as discussed fir typical high hat setups.

[rin]

9 minutes ago, Keni said:

No. Not necessarily.

It needs to have a method of doing this.

The most popular/common is to have actual sample/event assigned to a specific key. So I would scour the manufacturer’s keymap. It’s easy to miss finding on many maps. I myself constantly lose my place in Superior Drummer’s map which I find I don’t like it’s organization, but you get used to it with time.

 

Often a workaround for most drum software can be to insert a zero-velocity event where desired. Not always effective. Depending on re-trigger settings, one can turn off the previous when overlapped as discussed fir typical high hat setups.

This makes no sense to me, lol.

I don't know how to assign things to a key...unless you're talking about drum maps? In the drum map I don't see a way to have "KeyAft" events as the "In Note/Out Note".

I also don't know how to do zero-velocity events in real time.

[Starship Krupa]

25 minutes ago, rin said:

Any recommendations on drum plugins that do support aftertouch? If I plug my kit into my BFD Player app the cymbal choke functions work.

Since it works well with your BFD Player app, I'd check with BFD themselves. They make a popular series of virtual drum instruments that can be hosted by Cakewalk (and other VST hosts).

I'll assume that BFD Player came bundled with the kit. It's even possible that the BFD Player itself is available in VSTi form? BFD may even have an upgrade path from the Player to their full-featured drum software.

[rin]

This is the MIDI map from the manual. So since there is no MIDI note for the choke feature specifically, it can't be mapped in the drum map, is that correct? There's no way to map a "KeyAft" event to a sound or velocity change? Hard to believe Cakewalk wouldn't support this, might have to try a different DAW...

Edited October 3, 2023 by rin

[Starship Krupa]

23 minutes ago, rin said:

This makes no sense to me, lol.

I don't know how to assign things to a key...unless you're talking about drum maps? In the drum map I don't see a way to have "KeyAft" events as the "In Note/Out Note".

I also don't know how to do zero-velocity events in real time.

Don't worry. I think I understand what you have and what you are trying to get it to do.

Check with Alesis, check with BFD. You just need to find a virtual drum instrument that knows how to interpret what your Alesis drum brain is putting out. The DAW's job is to record whatever MIDI messages the drum brain is putting out. Then to play that information back either to an external unit or a virtual drum instrument. Unless the DAW is set to filter out polyphonic aftertouch data, the DAW will be out of the troubleshooting equation, and you've already pointed out that Cakewalk is successfully recording it.

The only matter of concern is that the virtual instrument knows what to do when it gets those key aftertouch messages.

There's a terminology issue in this thread, I think. The term "choking" usually refers to setting up a note so that playing a certain note event immediately after it cuts off its sustain. The classic example is that the open hi hat note will be choked by both the pedaled hi hat and the closed hi hat notes, and the open hi hat and pedal hi hat notes will both be choked by a closed hi hat.

In the case of your Alesis, the thing that's supposed to cause the note to get muted isn't a subsequent note event, it's a polyphonic aftertouch event. Polyphonic MIDI aftertouch isn't seen too often in the world of MIDI controllers, so it's interesting to me to see it being used in this way.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Starship Krupa

[Keni]

49 minutes ago, rin said:

This makes no sense to me, lol.

I don't know how to assign things to a key...unless you're talking about drum maps? In the drum map I don't see a way to have "KeyAft" events as the "In Note/Out Note".

I also don't know how to do zero-velocity events in real time.

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear.

All drum software has sounds assigned to keys. You need/can not do that for the most part. But all products don’t map their' sounds to a specific standard. There are a few standard practices that many adhere to.

 

You need to see if your product's manufacturer opted to add this.

Others assign such to an articulation which requires a combination of one key to switch to articulations and another to describe which articulation.

 

So either of these may be used in CbB.

You can create or find an articulation created for your need. Then insert that event into any project via their articulation functions. A separate item to learn unto itself.

The other method first described is an older method used before articulations were invented/added. It is simply the sound of the cymbal being played, choked. A sample which is tied to choke the cymbal just as hi hat successive event can.

...but the manufacturer has to offer one of these options and most do.

[rin]

Appreciate all the help I've gotten here. I'll play around with CbB and see what I can figure out.

[mettelus]

2 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

Check with Alesis, check with BFD.

I would definitely start with Alesis and their forum or even tech support. I would assume that all of their drum modules are configured similarly, and what you need to know is specific to their kits rather than the host (DAW).

[57Gregy]

1 hour ago, rin said:

Appreciate all the help I've gotten here. I'll play around with CbB and see what I can figure out.

I assume you have these 2 items selected in Preferences?
And welcome to the forum.

 

[rin]

3 hours ago, 57Gregy said:

I assume you have these 2 items selected in Preferences?
And welcome to the forum.

 

Yes, both of those are checked.

[rin]

I downloaded MidiViewer and captured my aftertouch events from the kit in there too, so I know it's working from the kit to the PC.

Far as I can tell, it's the SI-Drum VST that comes with CbB that is holding the aftertouch events up. The kit is transmitting them to the DAW, but they're not getting translated into SI-Drums. Don't see a way in drum map manager to add aftertouch events, so I think I'm screwed.

BFD Player works with the aftertouch events, so I guess I'll use that. Shame the SI-Drums doesn't support it, ya get what ya pay for I guess, lol.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by rin

[sjoens]

7 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

having one note cut off another note's sustain isn't what @rin is having trouble with.

Kinda figured, but this is all i found skimming thru the manual, which didn't seem too informative.  Probably a question for the Alesis forums.

57Gregy makes a good point too since these are off by default.