Let this be heard, please bakers!

[Will.]

No tone was brighten up here Tim. Just trying to make it as clear as possible. 

[Bass Guitar]

Sorry I still don't understand 100% and that's all good because I probably don't need to understand it all!  And honestly I tried,  What you are talking about is performing tasks I have never had to utilize.  I mostly record our band live just to mess around with stuff but I am also trying to put down a few of my own original songs so that takes me a little deeper. I'm learning. And I'm finding there's a lot to learn just cruising this forum from time to time. I've read a lot of your posts and you seem like a pretty helpful person so sorry if I seemed like I was arguing or something, no, just trying to learn something new. Thanks. 

[Will.]

1 hour ago, Bass Guitar said:

Sorry I still don't understand 100% and that's all good because I probably don't need to understand it all!  And honestly I tried,  What you are talking about is performing tasks I have never had to utilize.  I mostly record our band live just to mess around with stuff but I am also trying to put down a few of my own original songs so that takes me a little deeper. I'm learning. And I'm finding there's a lot to learn just cruising this forum from time to time. I've read a lot of your posts and you seem like a pretty helpful person so sorry if I seemed like I was arguing or something, no, just trying to learn something new. Thanks. 

Everything is all good and well, i honestly didnt think you were trying to argue. I'm gona try and explain this again, because i really do want you to be onboard with this. So I will attach videos. 

[Noel Borthwick]

To be clear, there will be no more feature updates or bug fixes to the CbB codebase. 
The only reason it's being kept active for now is to provide users time to transition to the upcoming (paid) Sonar product. 
If you do intend to use Cakewalk please consider moving to Sonar (when its available obviously). We also plan on having a public beta release for it soon once the user interface is complete, so you can make up your mind. There is no change from the workflow of Cbb so the transition should be effortless.

If you have requests or bug reports continue to post them but they will only be fixed in the new Sonar release.

[Noel Borthwick]

On 9/4/2023 at 6:39 PM, Sidney Earl Goodroe said:

Thanks, Will.!! The family here at Cake would surely be missed!! You along with the rest here on this forum have been absolutely the best!

Hopefully,  the price of Sonar will be affordable and all this worrying will have been in vain!

The price would be very affordable so there is really no need for panic. (less than what anyone paid for SONAR platinum)
We expect that most people who actively use CbB today should have no reason not to upgrade to a paid and fully supported product.

[Will.]

9 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

There is no change from the workflow of Cbb so the transition should be effortless.

So will this be carried over into Sonar? Cause it does eat up precious headroom. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Will.

[Noel Borthwick]

Just now, Will. said:

So will this be carried over into Sonar? 

I'm not sure what you mean by carried over. Sonar started from the same code, so it has all the features that CbB has, and more, besides having a more modern scalable UI that works well with high DPI monitors. 
With one exception. Theme manager will not be supported in the first version of Sonar.

[Will.]

1 minute ago, Noel Borthwick said:

I'm not sure what you mean by carried over. 

The discussion of how instrument per track output handles its Mono inserts. 

Right now it collapse both channels to one mono track which adds that 3db gain in volume as oppose to just splitting the instrument track to create a dead balance volume with no gain increase on the track. 

Think of the Bounce To Track window where you can Split the channel format to you get both L&R channels when you press OK.  So cant we have Sonar to split the instrument track insert of its stereo interleave to get a mono insert by splitting the channels under the hood and deleting the Right channel when creating the mono interleave. 

[Will.]

Current mono inserts with instrument interleave. 

 

How CbB/Sonar should handle mono inserts with interleave. 

 

The second track in the video is the same track, but was split and bounced to two mono tracks with the right channel deleted and the left channel panned back to dead center. So what i was asking is, cant we let Sonar and Next handle its mono and stereo tracks separate from one another? Meaning: for them to split the channel format under the hood to create a mono track with only the left channel for both Audio and Instrument tracks. This leads to no increase in volume keeping this balanced. 

? I hope presonus dont steal this idea first. ??‍♂️ 

[Bass Guitar]

Ok I see what you are doing. 

But here's a ponder then. I hope this is still on topic.  You are using a synth for the demo, synths are all stereo, right? But I use mono audio tracks which I think are truly mono. They only become stereo if you add an effect that generates stereo out put? Correct? I only use the pro channel EQ and the PC2A compressor on audio tracks.  Do they become stereo?  good question.  If I add effects I will do this with a send to a bus. Another pondering question, do they send a stereo signal from a mono source?    I have actually never noticed the interleave icon before. 

And so that was why I was wondering about your issue which I see is a legit issue but possibly only for a very few users. Seems like the boss was sort of ignoring your request anyhoo,  but he did just say a few things I'll add to my list of what is going to happen sometime soon with CbB. 

[Sidney Earl Goodroe]

Thanks for the reply, Noel! Didn't expect to hear from upper management!?

[Will.]

27 minutes ago, Bass Guitar said:

Ok I see what you are doing. 

But here's a ponder then. I hope this is still on topic.  You are using a synth for the demo, synths are all stereo, right? But I use mono audio tracks which I think are truly mono. They only become stereo if you add an effect that generates stereo out put? Correct? I only use the pro channel EQ and the PC2A compressor on audio tracks.  Do they become stereo?  good question.  If I add effects I will do this with a send to a bus. Another pondering question, do they send a stereo signal from a mono source?    I have actually never noticed the interleave icon before. 

And so that was why I was wondering about your issue which I see is a legit issue but possibly only for a very few users. Seems like the boss was sort of ignoring your request anyhoo,  but he did just say a few things I'll add to my list of what is going to happen sometime soon with CbB. 

If you have information on both L&R channel even if the data on this track is "true MONO" collapsing this to a single channel format (Mono track) will add that 3db increase in gain. 

You do get mono synths. I have a few. Its because of them, i started noticing this issue in CbB. So, my workaround was always to get the melody first and split the channels to get a perfect unaltered true "Mono track" before I start mixing. 

So, whatever i throw on this tracks stays the same volume even if i toggle the interleave between mono and stereo, because theres no second channel to collapse to. This leaves the track in true mono format. 

[Xoo]

5 hours ago, Will. said:

The second track in the video is the same track, but was split and bounced to two mono tracks with the right channel deleted and the left channel panned back to dead center. So what i was asking is, cant we let Sonar and Next handle its mono and stereo tracks separate from one another? Meaning: for them to split the channel format under the hood to create a mono track with only the left channel for both Audio and Instrument tracks. This leads to no increase in volume keeping this balanced.

There's only the increase if there's a correlated signal in both channels.  Take a contrived example where the left channel is a sine wave and the right channel is the same sine wave phase shifted by 180 degrees.  Sum them to mono and you get no signal.

In a more real-world example, suppose you have a stereo track containing something like a string quartet, quite heavily panned.  Throwing one side away would be significantly worse than adding a 3dB gain as you'd actually lose information (instruments).  The extreme example would be a stereo signal with silence in the left channel and something (anything!) in the right.  Collapsing in your way would lead to silence which is obviously incorrect.

That said, the 3dB gain is potentially a problem, so surely the better thing to do would be to add a "hidden" 3dB attenuation when you set the interleave of a genuine stereo track to mono?

[Will.]

3 hours ago, Xoo said:

There's only the increase if there's a correlated signal in both channels.  Take a contrived example where the left channel is a sine wave and the right channel is the same sine wave phase shifted by 180 degrees.  Sum them to mono and you get no signal.

In a more real-world example, suppose you have a stereo track containing something like a string quartet, quite heavily panned.  Throwing one side away would be significantly worse than adding a 3dB gain as you'd actually lose information (instruments).  The extreme example would be a stereo signal with silence in the left channel and something (anything!) in the right.  Collapsing in your way would lead to silence which is obviously incorrect.

That said, the 3dB gain is potentially a problem, so surely the better thing to do would be to add a "hidden" 3dB attenuation when you set the interleave of a genuine stereo track to mono?

We are not talking about stereo tracks. We're talking about MONO INSTRUMENT INSERT TRACKS that sits in (on) a stereo enviroment (track.) 

This is clearly demonstrated in the videos above - a mono insert with mono information that still gains a 3dB increase when you collapse the channels. Where a true mono track are being demonstrated in video 2 with no boost even when the channel formats are being collapsed to one mono interleave/track/strip. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Will.

[Xoo]

My examples could easily be from a soft-synth so the same logic applies - throwing away one channel is (potentially) bad.

[Will.]

1 hour ago, Xoo said:

My examples could easily be from a soft-synth so the same logic applies - throwing away one channel is (potentially) bad.

How is throwing away one channel of a mono synth in a stereo format track bad, when it give the channel a true mono insert? If i wanted a stereo synth, I would use a stereo synth - come on now. ?

Edited September 8, 2023 by Will.

[Xoo]

How does Cakewlak/Sonar know it's mono?

[Will.]

2 hours ago, Xoo said:

How does Cakewlak/Sonar know it's mono?

A stereo track is essentially two mono tracks/channels that are panned hard Left & Right on one track. So by removing either one of the channels you get a true mono track. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Will.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

1 hour ago, Will. said:

A stereo track is essentially two mono tracks/channels that are panned hard Left & Right on one track. So by removing either channel you get a true mono track. 

Not if either side contains information not present in the other side

[Bristol_Jonesey]

Apparently I said something funny. Care to elaborate?