question regarding the new update coming up

[John Vere]

Just to set this right, This is the old Cakewalk site this page is called Versions and includes Pricing from those days as well as a comprehensive list of what you get in each version. https://taylor.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Versions#start

I still have Sonar Professional which is a totally different installer and serial numbers than my copy of Sonar Platinum. 

At the time there was no way I was going to pay $300 more for features that didn't interest me. But they must have offered a deal to upgrade and I took the bait.  If I remember it was only $150.  And I even got Professional at a discount as an upgrade from X3.  My account shows Sonar Pro Jan 2015 then Splat June 2015. 

I am thinking we will be returning to something very similar in marketing and pricing. 

As I said in another thread it would seem that those of us who already own all the extra goodies might not need to pay for the full version. But somehow I think they got that one figured out too. New goodies!!  Ya! 

 

 

[gustabo]

2 hours ago, JohnnyV said:

I am thinking we will be returning to something very similar in marketing and pricing. 

 

 

 

Wait and see...

[Heath Row]

Oh the Cakewalk forums, never fail to entertain, just imagine what it will be like as we get closer to release ?

[InstrEd]

20 minutes ago, heath row said:

Oh the Cakewalk forums, never fail to entertain, just imagine what it will be like as we get closer to release ?

At least you could of done was provide Buttered Popcorn   ?

[Starship Krupa]

11 hours ago, JohnnyV said:

I still have Sonar Professional

Hah. You only think you do. Ever hear of The Mandela Effect? ?

I never owned a version of SONAR in the X years, when I started it was still Cakewalk, then it became SONAR. I stopped using it around 2003 or so (SONAR 2.0 maybe?) and then didn't come back until CbB shipped, so I have nothing to go on but the old marketing materials on the website, old reviews, etc.

When I first got CbB, I took a look at that page, with the comparative features and it looked to me like almost all of the things that separated Professional (sic) from Platinum were plug-ins, made either by Cakewalk or by 3rd parties.

Since Drum Replacer looks and acts like a plug-in and shows up in Browser as one, I thought it was a plug-in, although the web page calls it a Core Feature, as it does half a dozen PC modules, which are plug-ins.

After that, we wind up with the differences in "core features" amounting to VocalSync and Theme Editor. Much as I love Theme Editor, and will miss it if it's not going to be a part of Cakewalk Sonar, it's a separate program.

Given that, if it's true, you might see why I came to the conclusion that CbB was closer to Professional than Platinum in features.

I don't want to perpetuate misinformation if I can avoid it, so if I've got it wrong I want to know before I repeat anything that isn't factual. Someone just saying, "no, you're WRONG" without saying where I'm wrong doesn't help. What am I missing?

This isn't just an academic question, the userbase is eventually going to be asked to start paying for Sonar, and it would be nice to know which version Cakewalk Sonar most resembles. Of course we haven't seen Sonar yet, so we don't know what features it will have that CbB doesn't.

[Lord Tim]

It's kind of just academic at the end of the day, though, when you really think about it.

Yes, comparing the wording of the marketing for CbB when it was released 5+ years ago to which edition of SONAR was definitely valid for providing context back then. As CbB was free, it was almost kind of irrelevant back then too, other than to highlight that a lot of the stuff you did get with the top-tier product line was baked into the free version, 3rd party plugins notwithstanding. Was the marketing correct? We could debate that either way.

The pricing structure and how software is being delivered has changed a lot in the last half a decade, with most going to a subscription "pay to keep using it or else" model either entirely or predominantly. Software that can be purchased outright now has had to have its price massively adjusted for this new environment, so there's not really an apples to apples comparison for SONAR Platinum in 2017 to whatever version of SONAR there would be if Gibson was selling it now (then again, Gibson being Gibson, who knows what dumb crap they would have done?)

I think the correct lens to look at this through now is "does it suit my needs" and "how does it compare to other DAWs at this price point (once we know what that is)."  If you're looking at feature-to-feature of what matters to you and comparing it to, say, Studio One, then there's your direct value comparison, rather than referring back to marketing from 5+ years ago, to form a conclusion about any inferred price or value.

Ultimately people are going to decide if it fits or not once it's out.

If the price point is comparable to Cubase (for example) then why Sonar over Cubase? Does the workflow suit? Is learning a whole new DAW worth the time investment elsewhere? Are you worried about 30+ years worth of backwards compatibility for Cakewalk products for your projects? Even if something costs less, those are pretty major concerns to take into account with which software you want to make your primary DAW. (And as said many times, there's no reason why people can't use multiple DAWs anyway)

The comparison shouldn't be marketing from 5+ years ago, it should be against the competition and the value of how the workflow matters to you.

That all said, I do understand what you're getting at with learning about where it stands in history and not wanting to share misinformation. That's valid, but I still think that doesn't have a lot of real-world bearing on the product going forward, personally.

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

14 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

Tesla owners, for starters.

At least if CbB crashes nobody gets hurt. I wouldn't want to be a Beta Tester for self driving cars which is basically what Tesla Autopilot Customers are. 

"The Washington Post analyzed data from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and found that Tesla's Autopilot has led to 736 crashes and 17 deaths in the U.S. since 2019.12 "

[HIBI]

4 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

Given that, if it's true, you might see why I came to the conclusion that CbB was closer to Professional than Platinum in features.

Platinum and Professional are not the same when compared based on the core program alone, excluding plug-ins and add-ons.
There's only one difference that I remember but at least Professional didn't have a "Plug-in load balancing" option, it was for Platinum only.
From that perspective, CbB is based on Platinum's core program.

P.S. It seems the dithering options for Pow-r 1, 2, and 3 were also only available in Platinum.

Edited September 14, 2023 by HIBI

[chris.r]

8 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

When I first got CbB, I took a look at that page, with the comparative features and it looked to me like almost all of the things that separated Professional (sic) from Platinum were plug-ins, made either by Cakewalk or by 3rd parties.

CbB, when it was first released, had nearly the same feature set as Platinum but without bundled software. There were only 2-3 tiny features missing, like the Izotope Radius for one, that a bunch of us instantly started to cry out on for bringing it back, me included (because I find it sounding best for transposing complex audio), so they brought some of it back soon after - thanks bakers. I don't get it how many don't quite see where the $499 price was coming mostly from, and it's from the bundled software like Addictive Drums 2 (full, and iirc, it was the Custom Bundle so I guess it alone must have been worth the bigger part of the whole price), Dimension Pro, AAS Sessions, Truepianos, Boutique Suite, full featured ProChannel, Melodyne, Blue Tubes, L-phase EQ and multiband, Adaptive Limiter etc. Studio/Professional had only crippled Prochannel, crippled Quadqurve, only AD2 single version, Dimension LE and didn't have many of the smaller bundled software like the Breverb, Bifilter2, Truepianos, Sessions and alike. Feature-wise Professional and Platinum were nearly the same, except a few differences already pointed out in this thread.

I see there are some people willing to pay this amounts again, well I can only wish to ever be in their position. I could only afford Platinum because previously I owned some $60 worth of X1 Studio that I found on sale (rare at this price) so when Gibson offered the infamous upgrade to Platinum liftime updates(!) for around $120, and I could get it from jrrshop for even less with the infamous code 'group' or 'forum', think ultimately it was somewhere around $110 for me. And that was supposed to be the final price for me, one in a lifetime... right? And even then I had to inhumanly stress my family with such one time price, rent-to-own wasn't an option.

(am I going to collect bashes for sayin' that? ?)

Edited September 14, 2023 by chris.r

[Starship Krupa]

3 hours ago, HIBI said:

Platinum and Professional are not the same when compared based on the core program alone, excluding plug-ins and add-ons.
There's only one difference that I remember but at least Professional didn't have a "Plug-in load balancing" option, it was for Platinum only.
From that perspective, CbB is based on Platinum's core program.

P.S. It seems the dithering options for Pow-r 1, 2, and 3 were also only available in Platinum.

Thank you for letting me know this.

I wonder why Cakewalk Inc. left those features off the comparison list (or did I just miss them, or were they added after the list was made?).

Plug-in Load Balancing is a big plus for me. Still not quite the "many" that Byron referred to, but an important feature to me. I once experimented with a challenging project on my 11-year-old laptop, changed nothing but turning Plug-In Load Balancing off, and it couldn't even play it.

The dithering would also be if I ever got projects to the point where I wanted to render them for conversion. ?

I'm not sure why it stirred controversy when I said I thought CbB was similar to SONAR Professional feature-wise. I didn't say "identical." And even now that HIBI has kindly enlightened me, for feature comparison purposes, CbB still seems to me closer to Professional than to Platinum.

Nobody outside of BandLab knows what features other than the new GUI Cakewalk Sonar is going to have. I'm sure it will still have Drum Replacer, VocalSync, Plug-In Load Balancing, and the Pow-r dithering options, but what about bundled plug-ins? One thing that would be great would be if the Sonitus Suite could get a makeover and conversion to VST3. Whatever comes with it, I really hope it's not locked to Sonar. I use multiple DAW's and I don't like to use plug-ins that are tied to only one of them (I make an exception for the almighty Quadcurve EQ).

My attitude toward bundled plug-ins is similar to @JohnnyV's, I think. Given a $300 price difference, I would also opt to spend the money on other audio tools.

[Starship Krupa]

5 minutes ago, chris.r said:

Professional had only crippled ProChannel

By crippled, do you mean that it didn't have all of the modules that Platinum did? CbB shipped with fewer modules than Platinum as well. It left out a couple of the compressors, such as the PC-2A. Can't remember the other one, maybe the Bus Compressor 4K or Channel Compressor 4K? It also had no Concrete Limiter.

Artist, on the other hand, at least according to that chart, only had the Style Dials, with the Style Dials' "back ends," the PX-64 Percussion Strip, VX-64 Vocal Strip, and the TL-64 Tube Leveler probably hidden like they were in CbB (until we figured out how to unhide them).

For people who were owners of Platinum and installed CbB, it would have looked and acted like exactly the same program, due to Platinum's extra goodies coming over seamlessly (in most cases). There were a LOT of extra goodies.

One of the reasons that I started both the "Favorite Freeware" topics years ago was that CbB shipped with such a bare minimum of plug-ins. Especially in the area of instruments, it's lacking a bunch of Cakewalk-branded ones that even Professional came with.

[John Vere]

This is why I’m saying that for most long time users who own Sonar from 2017 we might get away with purchasing a lower version of the new Sonar if all that is missing is the goodies we already own.
That actually seems fair seeing as how many of the Lifetime Members are still feeling a bit grumpy about being hoodwinked. 
 

Which also brings up a reminder to all of those people to back up everything in your legacy Cakewalk account.

Don’t come around complaining if Bandlab one day decides the old server is not really important to their business.  
All the goodies have installers and serial numbers back it up! 
I haven’t had to use the web site for years now because I did this in 2017. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by JohnnyV

[chris.r]

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

By crippled, do you mean that it didn't have all of the modules that Platinum did? CbB shipped with fewer modules than Platinum as well. It left out a couple of the compressors, such as the PC-2A. Can't remember the other one, maybe the Bus Compressor 4K or Channel Compressor 4K? It also had no Concrete Limiter.

Yup, less modules is what I mean. Also the Quadqurve EQ wasn't expandable. I don't think Concrete Limiter has been ever included in any of the trims, wish it was still available though.

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

For people who were owners of Platinum and installed CbB, it would have looked and acted like exactly the same program, due to Platinum's extra goodies coming over seamlessly (in most cases). There were a LOT of extra goodies.

Exactly! ? Brilliant move from the bakers. After the re-introduction of Radius I was really only missing out on Bifilter2. Had to investigate for some replacement.

Edited September 14, 2023 by chris.r

[marcL]

2 hours ago, chris.r said:

After the re-introduction of Radius I was really only missing out on Bifilter2.

Strange, I still have it installed! I think it is included in one of the Platinum plugin installers!

Oh, I found it: It is contained in the BoutiqueFXSuite!

Edited September 14, 2023 by MarcL

[chris.r]

4 minutes ago, MarcL said:

Strange, I still have it installed! I think it is included in one of the Platinum plugin installers!

Oh, I found it it is contained in the BoutiqueFXSuite!

Ah, you're right! I think I was initially considering clean install of only CbB but soon I realized there's no other way than install all previous incarnations (Platinum, X1) first to bring back all the goodies. I invested in MWobble on a sale anyway, when I saw that there were no plans to reissue the Bifilter2.

Thanks for the correction  

[marcL]

11 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

I think the correct lens to look at this through now is "does it suit my needs" and "how does it compare to other DAWs at this price point (once we know what that is)."

Yes Lord, I totally agree to this!

One thing that you are missing IMO is the authorization thing. For me (and maybe some others, too) it is also relevant what we get to own! If we get a version of a software with a real offline authorization (like Reaper) that we are able to use and authorize even on a new computer anytime, or if we get at least a version of a software that can be authorized on a new computer as long as the company is alive, or if we get a software that has to be re-authorized after a certain time!

Also if I buy a car I prefer that I am able to run it independently of the company's future or other dependencies. Sure I will depend on repair parts, but usually that can be solved in another way.

[Michael Vogel]

On 9/13/2023 at 6:33 AM, Larioso said:

I realize that that is my views. And the world of music recording never had those features until recently either.

- so how in the world did that happend?

- if vocals off, redo it

- so "need" is a relative matter

- a solution that is seeking a need?

- certainly daw makers trying to attract users with new features

- everything "needed" is already done

 

There is this documentary that Dave Grohl did over Soundcity studio, very nice film I recommend.

A short clip with Tom Petty he told about how they probably made 50 takes of one of his big hits.

- it's crafmanship from a lot of practice

 

Now we want effortless gratification!

- is something lost here maybe?

- I know, who cares!

 

I hired some vocalists and had a rough mix demo for them

- one song was to low in pitch and needed up two steps

- so had to make a new quick demo with just a guitar, then do the rest later alone

- yeah, I could have used some modern features saving some work, but solved it anyway

- and so did entire music industry back in the day with 4 track tape machines like early Beatles

 

Yet, this guy with thread "thread syncronization bug" moved to StudioOne Artist which has none of those features as in StudioOne Pro.

- after 20 years of Cakewalk Sonar/CbB

- he did film score for film industry, and swapped to a daw with nothing fancy

- again what is a "need"?

 

Always nice with headroom for things that you might need in future, but not a "need" IMO.

Yeah, I know, my views and who cares!

Let’s go back to 4 tracks of magnetic tape and splicing, bouncing down tracks to get another track for recording, reduced SNR, head realignment. Yeh it was exciting and what we had to do to get the best sound possible at that time. You had to re-record as there was no practical alternative.

Digital technology has opened the door to creativity, making it available to more people who don’t have to be electronics technicians to operate the equipment. Access to technology doesn’t make them  better musicians but owning a 4 track didn’t make you a star either. In the end, good music will find a way to be heard. There was always bad music too. Mozart was a genius in his time but I bet there were others we’ve never heard of simply because they didn’t get the opportunities or their music stank.

[Noel Borthwick]

17 hours ago, MarcL said:

Also if I buy a car I prefer that I am able to run it independently of the company's future or other dependencies. Sure I will depend on repair parts, but usually that can be solved in another way.

The fact of the matter is that we live in a connected world. I understand your perspective and I feel the same about some things esp appliances, but like it or not the world has moved in that direction. Even appliances like phones, and electric vehicles are extremely tied to ever changing software on the back end so you are intrinsically tied to the company whether you know it or not. If google or apple were to go under suddenly, its guaranteed that your phone would not work. If tesla were to tank, your car would certainly develop problems.

My point is its pointless fixating on these issues. Its a possibility but unlikely for the reason that if there is indeed an escrow situation, in the vast majority of cases someone takes over and services are restored. You are still using SONAR and its services, more than 5 years after the company tanked aren’t you? If that isn’t a good example I don’t know what is.
Bottom line is if this scenario is not acceptable, then you should consider something else that uses the old desktop software model and isn’t connected to web services.

[marcL]

16 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

If google or apple were to go under suddenly, its guaranteed that your phone would not work. If tesla were to tank, your car would certainly develop problems.

Luckily I skip these 2 examples for now, cos I don't own a cell phone and an electric vehicle!

19 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

My point is its pointless fixating on these issues. Its a possibility but unlikely for the reason that if there is indeed an escrow situation, in the vast majority of cases someone takes over and services are restored. You are still using SONAR and its services, more than 5 years after the company tanked aren’t you? If that isn’t a good example I don’t know what is.

I agree that Sonar has been a positive example so far, but I had several authorization issues with other music software companies where I was not able to use the plugin/program anymore. Therefore I even prefer iLok over online authorization.

23 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Bottom line is if this scenario is not acceptable, then you should consider something else that uses the old desktop software model and isn’t connected to web services.

I will see how your authorization model will look like and will come to a decision then. Still I like Sonar/CbB and its workflow a lot, thus it would be a pity and make me sad, if I had to leave that route completely (maybe in that case we are still allowed to use Sonar Platinum).

[John Vere]

1 hour ago, MarcL said:

I had to leave that route completely (maybe in that case we are still allowed to use Sonar Platinum).

This is also tied to a server to authorize. They never unlocked it. You need to go all the way back to X3 for that true blue DVD install with Serial Number experience. 

This might be an option for a few but not for most of us who really depend on Cakewalk/Sonar for serious work. And we need it to be stable. It was not stable in 2017 and the further back you go the worse it got until you possibly hit 8.5. X1 might have been the all time worse version of Cakewalk/Sonar.  They are still improving that code but I have had very very few times that I will find a minor issue and it's almost always due to a plug in. 

I personally could care less how they choose to authorize it. I use to be a die hard Off Liner but as Noel just pointed out that's pointless. If you don't like a companies anti piracy policy shop elsewhere, and good luck.  

Using your Car analogy I own a 1985 GMC van. It would be your dream vehicle because it doesn't have a computer to control things and anyone can fix it with a box of wrenches and a Philips screwdriver. But it also doesn't have Air bags or ABS brakes and the zillions of other safety features modern cars have that have saved millions of lives since their inception. And it also is very inefficient and pollutes like crazy. Technology like it or not has a lot more good to it than bad. Even Cell phones have saved thousands of lives. 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by JohnnyV