How to automate volume but still use the track volume slider?

[T Boog]

17 hours ago, Larioso said:

Since it decides level hitting first plugin it may very well do so.

- a compressor for one thing is affected a lot

- many hardware emulating ones does not like 0 dBFs at all, and you have to turn gain down a bit

I esp notice it on my elec guitar using a high gain TH3 amp sim. The track is not yet rendered so it's a live vst. When I lower the track's gain knob the guitar sounds cleaner & weaker. When I turn it up, it acts like a front end boost giving me more amp distortion & sustain. But this makes sense right? Isn't EVERY effect in the chain affected by the strength of the signal reaching it?

[John Vere]

Glad you sorted it out as that old thread sort of ended with no solution. There was a lot of  long time users and all of us were sort of stumped. @Kalle Rantaaho was the closest to figuring it out as all fingers pointed at some sort of internal routing issue.  I have never used Offset mode so I would have to look it up to understand what it actually does. Sound like something I would defiantly use with extreme caution, like Ripple Edit. 

The Gain control is often overlooked. It is actually the most important setting on a channel strip. 45 years of live sound mixing teaches you that. You have 8, 12, 16, 24 channels of live inputs, You need to get a mix happening FAST. At sound check- ,  Mute the Mains, use headphones, you set all the faders at unity and musician, instrument, channel by channel you solo and use the input gain to put the meter where you want it. During the show you are constantly tweaking the gain keeping an eye out for peaking.  Once every channel is set at the same input level the mix will be 90% balanced. Even the monitors will be easy to set. 

That input gain is the way to achieve a balanced mix without touching a fader.  I set a basic target, nothing is to go over -6db. Average should be around -10 or -12.  Vocals will need the most work and a touch of compression to catch peaks but I will also edit the track with clip gain ( actually I use Melodyne now) to get rid of those manually. 

It was mentioned that you would not use the gain to turn down a track because it becomes lame,  and with that I absolutely agree. To a point So to clarify, turning down a track that doesn't have dynamic effects on it is harmless. What I am saying is all your tracks should be optimized and set at the target level long before you would be automating a fader. This is the Gains purpose.

And yes you need to be aware of how the gain will interact with compressors. This is all part of having a workflow that keeps that signal chain in mind at all times.  Remember, adding any effects can change the output of the track especially EQ. Its a balancing act of making changes and keeping an eye on that peak level. You want to hear that compressor working? Then keep the gain up and use it's output to maintain the peak. Always observe the peak readings that are found in your effects like in the Pro Channel. Don't clip anything!  Keep that fader at unity as you work. Look at the console view to observe all your faders

 Play the song and observe each tracks peak and hold readings. They should not be exciding your target levels. I have different targets for different types of  tracks. Example Keyboards @ -12. Bass and drums @ - 6.  Same goes fore the buses. If they are peaking  go find the hot spots and either fix them manually of use a compressor /limiter.   Then you can start automation to bring stuff in and out of the mix. This step should be the last thing you do.

Tip- Mix recall is your friend if you want to start over but don't want to loose the currant mix and all it's effects and automations. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by JohnnyV

[JnTuneTech]

37 minutes ago, JohnnyV said:

The Gain control is often overlooked. It is actually the most important setting on a channel strip. 45 years of live sound mixing teaches you that. You have 8, 12, 16, 24 channels of live inputs, You need to get a mix happening FAST. At sound check- ,  Mute the Mains, use headphones, you set all the faders at unity and musician, instrument, channel by channel you solo and use the input gain to put the meter where you want it. During the show you are constantly tweaking the gain keeping an eye out for peaking.  Once every channel is set at the same input level the mix will be 90% balanced. Even the monitors will be easy to set. 

That input gain is the way to achieve a balanced mix without touching a fader. 

I keep seeing discussions that go on about this, but the biggest difference here is that we are not using a physical channel strip and amplification hardware inside of the DAW. -The place where hardware gain staging works in a typical DAW is in the audio interface - which has the real controls for gain and headroom (plus impedance, routing, and so on). -Before it even gets to the DAW.   And some audio interfaces even include pre-DAW input processing options, so using the old analog methods inside the DAW will be useless if the hardware I/O mixing is not right in the first place.

I see so many posts in these forums, regarding issues with audio interfaces, starting with the drivers, & connecting to CbB tracking, And it seems to me that audio interface setup and configuration is one of the biggest wildcards in using a DAW, versus something like an old integrated mixer & recording deck. (Plugins are then the next biggest departures and wildcard issues). -Gain staging inside the DAW is certainly necessary and important, and for things like chaining plugins can be very important to understand, but again if you really don't learn how the hardware I/O controls & driver options work, you won't ever get the kind of scenario that you are talking about above with using analog mixing and gain control, except by luck if all your mics & line levels somehow magically set themselves up in your sound interface, -which again, comes way before the channel strip & virtual gain inside the DAW.

[JnTuneTech]

4 hours ago, T Boog said:

I esp notice it on my elec guitar using a high gain TH3 amp sim. The track is not yet rendered so it's a live vst. When I lower the track's gain knob the guitar sounds cleaner & weaker. When I turn it up, it acts like a front end boost giving me more amp distortion & sustain. But this makes sense right? Isn't EVERY effect in the chain affected by the strength of the signal reaching it?

If you read the setup instructions on any major amp sim plugin, one of the first things they will state is that you have to find a proper input signal setting for your instrument input on your sound interface - to actually drive the simulations reliably. And many higher-end sims will point out that properly designed electrical inputs for guitar pickups & the like are not always the same. -Setting that all up prior to having a pass at tweaking the virtual gain in the DAW, will probably be more important to your virtual amp performance than anything else. -And for me, finding that setting that works consistently, across several types of instruments (guitar, bass, etc.) is tough, since, as you probably already know, there are so many styles of instrument pickups, it's nearly impossible to achieve in a DAW without having an individual audio interface gain (and possibly impedance) setup for each instrument, which is a real pain.

I have long since found that using factory presets, or other user's presets, in amp sims, never really works exactly as designed (or what the name of the preset seems to impart in my mind anyway), and that is because I am not using the same sound interface, the same input level, -much less the same guitar (or talent for that matter!)and even the same strings, etc. - before it even gets into the DAW & plugin.  -That being said - yes, you will notice all kinds of differences in amp sim performance, starting simply by changing the gain in your sound interface, and up to and including the gain staging in the DAW channel and plugins. -You just have to find what works for you, and if you really think you've found a great sound - definitely print it - before you lose it!  -Or, at least try to document all your settings in achieving that sound.  -Not that it's any easier really in the real world when using various amps, cabs, pedal chains, and so forth, -but it is a whole different set of variables to learn in a DAW.  -It can be fun, and frustrating - often all at the same time!  -From my experience anyway, FWIW.

[T Boog]

16 hours ago, JohnnyV said:

Mix recall is your friend

Thanks John. I didn't know about mix recall. Glad to know it exist.

Btw, I like what u said about creating my own workflow that suits my needs. That's why I'm trying to embrace offset mode. Automating as I go is important to me. If I can't do that, It's quite possible that I'll develop a drinking problem, buy a cat & become a recluse(? ?). I can't take that risk!

Seriously, I'm hoping that the extra control offset mode provides will be worth it in the end.

Anyway, Sincere Thanks to all of u here on the forum. Without ur help, I would've taken a baseball bat to my computer a long time ago... Office Space style ?

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by T Boog

[John Vere]

21 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

The place where hardware gain staging works in a typical DAW is in the audio interface - which has the real controls for gain and headroom (plus impedance, routing, and so on). -Before it even gets to the DAW.   And some audio interfaces even include pre-DAW input processing options, so using the old analog methods inside the DAW will be useless if the hardware I/O mixing is not right in the first place.

Yes 100% agree. Thanks for bringing this up.  The topic was about mixing within the DAW and not about live input recording. 

If there's one thing I always like to stress for anyone working with audio, be it live or in the box, "Gain staging is you key to successful results". You should understand it completely from top to bottom. My other favorite piece of advise is" Get a great sound before you hit the record button".  

[BigT1]

I'm going to take you on a different path.  In your envelope setting, look at the choice.  you may have put your envelope on VOLUME and edited it the way that you want it.  Now, drop down to CLIP GAIN envelope.  if you have nothing there, copy your automation from VOLUME to CLIP GAIN and check to see if the results are the same, you will have to delete or clear the VOLUME envelope, then see if you like the result.  If so, your track fader is free to use or write to as desired.  If you are using an EFFECT that has a gain control before it hits the track, you could automate that control instead and you would get back your fader.  You have a lot of automation that you can try that can free up the fader.
 

[John Vere]

3 hours ago, BigT1 said:

I'm going to take you on a different path.  In your envelope setting, look at the choice.  you may have put your envelope on VOLUME and edited it the way that you want it.  Now, drop down to CLIP GAIN envelope.  if you have nothing there, copy your automation from VOLUME to CLIP GAIN and check to see if the results are the same, you will have to delete or clear the VOLUME envelope, then see if you like the result.  If so, your track fader is free to use or write to as desired.  If you are using an EFFECT that has a gain control before it hits the track, you could automate that control instead and you would get back your fader.  You have a lot of automation that you can try that can free up the fader.
 

Brilliant, There's always 10 ways to do something in Cakewalk. And yes as I said I never normally use Fader automation but I use Clip gain a lot. It never occurred to me why I like it better.  

[Glenn Stanton]

one caveat for clip gain - it can impact how effects behave - so things like compression and saturation (or guitar amp sims etc) can end up behaving differently so consider you may have to do some compensation on those to accommodate the changes in clip gain. one reason to do the clip gain automation (sort of dynamic equalisation) before inserting and setting up any effects which can be impacted by those changes.

[John Vere]

28 minutes ago, Glenn Stanton said:

one caveat for clip gain - it can impact how effects behave - so things like compression and saturation (or guitar amp sims etc) can end up behaving differently so consider you may have to do some compensation on those to accommodate the changes in clip gain. one reason to do the clip gain automation (sort of dynamic equalisation) before inserting and setting up any effects which can be impacted by those changes.

Yes exactly. Like I said, it's all about a 100% total understanding of that good old signal path. 

Like vocals are the hardest. I now use Melodyne for leveling but I used to use Clip Gain or even the dreaded destructive "Gain" process to optimize the vocals and then add the EQ and then a compressor. This made the work the compressor needed to do less aggressive so there was no noticeable squashing happening.