Cakewalk really doesn't want to loop events in odd time signatures

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

I've been running into this issue quite frequently as described by the title. Cakewalk really doesn't seem to be capable of making looped events which are in odd measures.

For example, here's a measure in 19/8 I'm trying to make a looped pattern of:

With it selected as it is and making sure it completes the measure, performing `Ctrl+L` to loop it results in Cakewalk removing the last 8th note of the measure:

If I try to prevent this behavior by creating the loop by selecting one extra note of the next measure, it will simply ignore that and clip the last 8th note as it that selection didn't exist.

If I extend the event to include that extra 8th note with the provision it will be clipped once the loop it's made, that empty 8th note space is added as part of the loop. WTF:

If I make that a two bar pattern, it makes the loop normally. WTF #2:

Considering the complication Cakewalk already impinges upon you if you want to deal with multiple time signature changes, why looping a pattern in that format is inconsistent like that? Why does it clip the last note of a measure even when it's not invading the next measure? Why does it add an empty note space when you go over?

[David Baay]

On 8/6/2023 at 12:01 PM, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

If I make that a two bar pattern, it makes the loop normally.

Clips can only be looped at whole 'beat' boundaries and CbB considers a beat to be a quarter note regardless of the time signature. As a result, if you have an odd time signature in 8ths, you can't loop just one mesure (or any other odd number of measures). If a two-bar loop won't work in your composition, you can do it the old-fashioned way and copy-paste (with or without repeats) or use Duplicate, depending the need.

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

2 hours ago, David Baay said:

Clips can only be looped at whole 'beat' boundaries and CbB considers a beat to be a quarter note regardless of the time signature.

This is perhaps the first time I've seen a DAW where you have quantization you can't turn off. That's a shame.

[user 905133]

I know I used to do tunes in 7 and 5 in Cakewalk.  I am not sure I could find those project files though to see how I did it. I don't recall it as being a problem. Maybe it worked because I used a staff, not the PRV?  

[David Baay]

13 hours ago, User 905133 said:

I know I used to do tunes in 7 and 5 in Cakewalk. 

7/4 and 5/4 would be fine. It's only a problem when the 'beat' value in the time signature is less than a quarter.

 

14 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

This is perhaps the first time I've seen a DAW where you have quantization you can't turn off. That's a shame.

Seems likely the Bakers chose to limit it at a quarter to best serve the vast majority of loop-stye composers who are going to be working in 4/4 or maybe 3/4, and wanted to simplify guessing the intended number of beats in an unquantized clip that doesn't end exactly on a beat line.

I would just copy-paste, but if you really need  to be able to use Groove Clips, you can change the time signature to 19/4 and double the tempo.

[Colin Nicholls]

This bothers the heck out of me but I ended up making my loop clips two cycles long in my 7/8 sections. I.e. 7/4, effectively

[Will.]

On 8/6/2023 at 8:01 PM, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

I've been running into this issue quite frequently as described by the title. Cakewalk really doesn't seem to be capable of making looped events which are in odd measures.

For example, here's a measure in 19/8 I'm trying to make a looped pattern of:

With it selected as it is and making sure it completes the measure, performing `Ctrl+L` to loop it results in Cakewalk removing the last 8th note of the measure:

If I try to prevent this behavior by creating the loop by selecting one extra note of the next measure, it will simply ignore that and clip the last 8th note as it that selection didn't exist.

If I extend the event to include that extra 8th note with the provision it will be clipped once the loop it's made, that empty 8th note space is added as part of the loop. WTF:

If I make that a two bar pattern, it makes the loop normally. WTF #2:

Considering the complication Cakewalk already impinges upon you if you want to deal with multiple time signature changes, why looping a pattern in that format is inconsistent like that? Why does it clip the last note of a measure even when it's not invading the next measure? Why does it add an empty note space when you go over?

BPM, Project snap settings, Piano roll snap PLUS Piano roll Grid view all work as a team. 

In order to have your loop running, you have to set your grid view according to your desired snap setting in your PRV and to loop this is highly dependent on your project snap settings. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Will.

[Glenn Stanton]

... ignore me - too little brain hand coordination this morning before coffee...

Edited August 14, 2023 by Glenn Stanton

[user 905133]

Everyone who does "custom" / "odd" meters knows this, so this if for the benefit of people who stumble onto this thread and are intrigued enough to experiment.  The metronome can get messy, so as an alternative we can turn off the metronome and use a percussion track.  Even when doing something as ordinary as 6/8 I have found the percussion track helpful to set it up as 6/8 in 2 or 6/8 in 3 or somewhere in between.  Also works for "odd" meters.

Yes, I know everyone knows this, but for the benefit of people who only do 3/4 and 4/4 and always use the metronome, maybe this tidbit will be helpful. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by User 905133

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

7 hours ago, Will. said:

BPM, Project snap settings, Piano roll snap PLUS Piano roll Grid view all work as a team. 

In order to have your loop running, you have to set your grid view according to your desired snap setting in your PRV and to loop this is highly dependent on your project snap settings. 

After reading this, I did try it and it worked exactly once. After I undid the changes, I cannot make it happen again.

On 8/8/2023 at 2:17 PM, David Baay said:

Seems likely the Bakers chose to limit it at a quarter to best serve the vast majority of loop-stye composers who are going to be working in 4/4 or maybe 3/4, and wanted to simplify guessing the intended number of beats in an unquantized clip that doesn't end exactly on a beat line.

That is a strange decision considering other DAWs have similar tools for that purpose and they're not tied to a specific time signature.

[David Baay]

3 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

the /# part is the # of beats per measure. so 8 beats is 2x as many as 4. ? the #/ part is the number of notes played across the number of beats. so 7/4 is 7 notes played across 4 beats. 7/8 is 7 notes played across 8 beats.

Sorry, but this is just wrong. The denominator is the value of a 'beat' (i.e. where you would naturally tap your foot or count along in your head), and the numerator is the number of beats/taps/counts in a measure. 7/4 isn't "7 notes played across 4 beats" it's 7 quarter-note beats in a measure.

 

[OutrageProductions]

[David Baay]

1 hour ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

That is a strange decision considering other DAWs have similar tools for that purpose and they're not tied to a specific time signature.

More like an 'oversight' than a 'decision' probably. If they had taken the time signature into account, it would have been easy to specify "Beats in Clip" based on that, and probably not that difficult to implement after the fact.

[Glenn Stanton]

51 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Sorry, but this is just wrong. The denominator is the value of a 'beat' (i.e. where you would naturally tap your foot or count along in your head), and the numerator is the number of beats/taps/counts in a measure. 7/4 isn't "7 notes played across 4 beats" it's 7 quarter-note beats in a measure.

 

apologies - monday before coffee...

[David Baay]

1 minute ago, Glenn Stanton said:

before coffee...

Didn't know there was such a thing. ;^)

[Glenn Stanton]

well, high caffeine tea, red bull, etc all can work when the brain is thinking correctly and the hands type out dumb*ss stuff... ?