Questions recording in 32-bit float

[RexRed]

I start a new project and record a segment and the project says 32 bit, then I close and reopen the project and

up in the play transport under the now time it has changed to 24 bit.

But my interface says it is running at 32-bit float

The preferences say 32 bit.

Then when I go to put Melodyne on the recorded 32-bit file it works.

Melodyne is not supposed to work with 32bit files.

What is happening here?

Is Melodyne converting the file to 24bit?

Are 24 and 32bit files both working in the same project?

 

 

 

[scook]

The value shown in the Transport module is NOT the Audio Driver Bit Depth.

The value reflects the Record Bit Depth found in Preference > File > Audio Data.

 

While all the audio in a project must be the same sample rate, there is no such restriction on bit depth.

 

Anything rendered in the DAW, including Melodyne processed clips are stored at the Render bit Depth also set in Preferences > File > Audio Data

 

 

[RexRed]

26 minutes ago, scook said:

The value shown in the Transport module is NOT the Audio Driver Bit Depth.

The value reflects the Record Bit Depth found in Preference > File > Audio Data.

 

 

Okay, I found that, I know I have been told that before but I forgot it.

Why is Melodyne working on this 32bit wave file?

Is it converting it to 24 bit?

I would think Melodyne would give me an error and say, "This is a 32bit file".  

Is Cakewalk playing both 24 and 32 bit files in the project?

Edited July 28, 2023 by RexRed

[scook]

I was adding that to my reply

 

Internally Cakewalk is running 64bit because you have the 64bit DPE enabled.

Plug-in may processing at one bit depth but communicate at another.

The DAW tells you the bit depth of the connection to the plug-ins. This and the 64bit DPE determine the bit depth between the DAW and plug-ins like Melodyne.

I am looking for the link just a minute

[RexRed]

18 minutes ago, scook said:

I was adding that to my reply

 

Internally Cakewalk is running 64bit because you have the 64bit DPE enabled.

Plug-in may processing at one bit depth but communicate at another.

The DAW tells you the bit depth of the connection to the plug-ins. This and the 64bit DPE determine the bit depth between the DAW and plug-ins like Melodyne.

I am looking for the link just a minute

Thanks for the info SCook.

A link would be awesome. ?

When I right click on the audio clip and select associated audio files it says, bit depth 32.

Edited July 28, 2023 by RexRed

[scook]

half way down this page https://legacy.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.27.html

pdf p1013

[scook]

29 minutes ago, RexRed said:

Is Cakewalk playing both 24 and 32 bit files in the project?

It is possible.

Unlike sample rate, there is no restriction on having clips of different bit depths in a project.

[scook]

47 minutes ago, RexRed said:

Is it converting it to 24 bit?

Internally Cakewalk works at 32 or 64bit depending on the 64bit DPE setting. The image in the OP has 64bit DPE enabled so the DAW is running internally at 64bit.

Audio clips in a project may be at different bit depths depending on how they were added to the project. Recorded clips use Record Bit Depth. Bounced/Frozen/Export use Render Bit Depth. And there is a separate setting for imported clips.

 

[RexRed]

38 minutes ago, scook said:

half way down this page https://legacy.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.27.html

pdf p1013

I am not sure this worked right.

It took me to a help file about, "How to use real-time effects".

I can see how Melodyne is sort of a real-time effect.

I think this is using effects on the clips bin.

How do I find pdf p1013? 

[scook]

I do not know if the ARA path is 32 or 64bit. That would be a question for the devs.

I posted the Reference Guide pdf reference in case the web-based help failed. The pdf is a snapshot of the web-based help..

There is a link to the pdf at the top of this forum

 

[RexRed]

3 hours ago, scook said:

I do not know if the ARA path is 32 or 64bit. That would be a question for the devs.

I posted the Reference Guide pdf reference in case the web-based help failed. The pdf is a snapshot of the web-based help..

There is a link to the pdf at the top of this forum

 

I am guessing the ARA interface is 16 bit. This would explain a lot.

I found the PDF file as well, thanks for the heads up on that.

I asked if variable bitrates would not help with the bends of notes/blobs.

My email from Celemony

************************

Hello Rex,

thanks for the mail. Melodyne does not support 32 bit recording and variable bitrates. I doubt it is in any case halted to transients missing.

The bitrate sets the resolution of the amplitude at a given time. I do not know of any recording software that would assign bit in that way.

 

With best wishes,

Ulf Kaiser

*************************

Ulf has been a great help every time I have had to reach out to him.

In the next email he sent me links to some tutorials for Melodyne.

They were very helpful but it became clear that Melodyne is really only supposed to be applied to very specific parts of notes. Namely, the part where the main tune is, omitting the drift up and from the note/blob. 

Therein lies the rub, when you apply Melodyne to a section of the blob where the pitch "bends" this is where you get the wonky sound.

It distorts the tone in a boxy and unflattering way.

So it is either, get your bends right or get your bends right.

Melodyne won't help much on those areas.

Then I got this email message.

**************************

Hello Rex,

there's no need for 32 Bit recording or 96 kHz. A proper voice recording will do fine. 

The rest needs to be done using the tools in Melodyne: Separation, Note Assignment and Sibilance etc.

Make sure to watch a few videos here, it might help: 

See: https://helpcenter.celemony.com/M5/doc/melodyneStudio5Training/en/M5tour_Videoseite?env=proTools

Producing skills: Lead vocals

https://helpcenter.celemony.com/M5/doc/melodyneStudio5Training/en/M5tour_Videoseite?env=proTools

 

With best wishes,

Ulf Kaiser

************************

While these video helped a lot it also highlighted the fact that many parts of your recording cannot be altered with Melodyne. 

This brings me back to the question. If ARA 2 is only 16 bit conversion this might explain this limitation.

Ulf says Melodyne does not support 32 bit recording. 

What he does not say is whether if ARA 2 supports even 24 bit recording.

As for needing 32 bit Support in Melodyne I can see how the tools in Melodyne can be utilized to a great extent to mitigate the tone corruption of blobs. But I wonder if having Melodyne applying itself to higher quality wave files would not also be beneficial.

I am wondering if signing my lines in key is not simply the best option.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by RexRed

[RexRed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Random_Access

In this whole Wikipedia article and all the links at the bottom, there is no mention, not even a whisper, as to what wave conversion process is going on under the hood with ARA2.

The DAWS are evidently passing the wave files off to Melodyne and Melodyne is resampling them.

Am I sending off to the music stores 24-bit 96khz song files with 16-bit resampled vocals?

And what about effects? Are some VST effects forcing my wave files down to lower bitrates?

VST2 vs VST3?

VST2 VST3 and ARA ARA2 are interfaces.

The question becomes the quality of these interfaces.

Another question, does Pro Channel also rely on VST?

Edited July 29, 2023 by RexRed
typos

[scook]

ProChannel is based on VST2

[RexRed]

On 7/29/2023 at 8:14 AM, scook said:

ProChannel is based on the VST2

Perhaps, the biggest improvement of the VST3 plug-in is that it doesn't waste CPU resources and only works when it detects the presence of an audio signal, unlike VST2, which remains active at all times. For users, this means an opportunity to use a bigger number of plug-ins without overloading the system.

Google

https://blacktidemusic.com/software-and-plugins/vst2-vs-vst3/

Another article that does not mention bitrates or conversions of these interfaces.

Melodyne definitely resamples the wave, this is the reason why it works on a 32 bit file in my project.

What bit it resamples the wave to is still unknown. 

Considering ProChannel is on all the time this could account for CPU usage and load balancing may address ProChannel's use on only one core.

And just because a plugin is VST3, this does not necessarily mean that infrequent use is implemented in that particular plugin.

Then we have multi function plugins like Izotope Ozone 10 that seem to rely on many inputs.

It would be logical to assume that no conversion is happening when a VST plugin is used.

But ARA definitely converts/resamples the wave file.

I recall the old ARA that left a ghost file of the original wave that was muted.

And Melodyne must be resampling the wave to a lower bit depth if it cannot work on 32bit waves yet it does seem to work on them.

Does it resample the wave to as low as 16 bit? Still unknown. 16 bit is not out of the realm of possibility.

Edited July 30, 2023 by RexRed

[RexRed]

I would like to see ARA 3 with 32-bit support and colored blobs with track color information passed on to Melodyne per track.

Orange blobs all stacked on top of each other is messy as heck.

Many have requested colored blobs per track to Celemony support and they have so far opted not to acquiesce. 

I requested colored blobs/track 4 or 5 years ago.

The grid lines are also hard to see in Melodyne sometimes even with high contrast set all the way up.

Another feature request that has failed to materialize.

Edited July 30, 2023 by RexRed

[John Vere]

Almost all modern Audio Interfaces are set at 24 bit. I see you have a Zoom. It is possible it is set at 16 bit. 
So as he said there’s no reason to record at 32 bit and possibly only very high end interfaces are capable of it. 
Cakewalk uses 32 bit for rendering as that eliminates any errors in the number crunching. 
Melodyne uses a totally different rendering system and it will be 24 bit. 

[scook]

22 minutes ago, JohnnyV said:

Almost all modern Audio Interfaces are set at 24 bit.

Pretty sure you meant to say most ASIO drivers are 24bit. 

Some drivers work at high bit depths but this due to software DSP bundled with the hardware.

Some drivers can operate at a variety of bit depths.

The OP is not about any of those. According to their website, Zoom sells inexpensive 32bit interfaces. 

 

[John Vere]

1 minute ago, scook said:

Pretty sure you meant to say more ASIO drivers operate at 24bit. 

Some drivers work at high bit depths but this due to software DSP bundled with the hardware.

The interface mentioned in the OP is not one of those. According to their website, Zoom sells inexpensive 32bit interfaces.

 

Yes I guess it will be up to the driver . I was unaware of this fact until I did a bit of research when making my audio set up tutorial.
I noticed that in WASAPI mode Windows audio settings shows various bit rates available, but in ASIO it is always 24 which is also greyed out in Cakewalk. 
I started looking at the specs for interfaces and it seemed true of all the brands that listed this.

Thats when I noticed a few lower end interfaces were only 16 bit. 
Only mention of 32 bit was with $$$$ interfaces using none USB connections. 
Interesting the Zoom uses 32!  I think that is what Ulf was getting at. 48/24 is about as good as it needs to be considering what music ends up being played back on these days it is really overkill. 

[RexRed]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:06 AM, JohnnyV said:

Melodyne uses a totally different rendering system and it will be 24 bit. 

How do you know Melodyne (ARA2) is 24 bit? Please provide documentation.

Edited August 1, 2023 by RexRed

[RexRed]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:37 AM, JohnnyV said:

Interesting the Zoom uses 32!  I think that is what Ulf was getting at. 48/24 is about as good as it needs to be considering what music ends up being played back on these days it is really overkill. 

I have noticed a huge jump in sound fidelity and recording quality when switching to 32 bit. Quality which incidentally gets obliterated with the application of Melodyne to my clips.

Regardless of what bitrates people are listening to music with I would still prefer my own masters to be the best.

And with the utmost respect, I disagree with Ulf and Melodyne sounds crappy how it handles many sibilants. Someone has got to say it.

Is this Melodyne or the ARA specification? I think the latter, but both are inexplicably linked.

I will be recording all of my future songs in 32bit.

It is hard to believe that a $200 Zoom box can beat a $1,300 RME Fireface UCX 2 with recording but that is indeed the case.

I still run my Zoom into my UCX2 and use my UCX2 but for recording it is Zoom all the way.

It is weird but I think Cakewalk runs more stable in 32 bit mode as well.

Edited August 1, 2023 by RexRed