"Striping Timecode"

[ED To Shred]

I need to output a wave or mp3 file of my backing tracks. I need to pan all the music to one side and have SMPTE on the other track. My laser and lighting guy will use this to program the lighting and laser show. My question... How can I "stripe timecode" on a track in Cakewalk? I've done several google searches and can't seem to find the answer. I would appreciate any help!

[user 905133]

36 minutes ago, ED To Shred said:

I've done several google searches and can't seem to find the answer. I would appreciate any help!

(1) I don't know because I have only used midi time code, never SMPTE.

(2) You mentioned doing several Google searches. Is it safe to assume you couldn't find out how to use Cakewalk and SMPTE together through the Cakewalk Reference Guide or Online Documentation?  (Sorry, because you only mention having done Google searches, this has to be asked.)

https://legacy.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Synchronizing.09.html

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by User 905133
to add a link

[ED To Shred]

I searched the online docs as well. That page never came up in the results. I must have put too much in the search. Thank you! This looks like it will help me get further in figuring it out.

[msmcleod]

You can't "stripe" timecode in Cakewalk as such.

SMPTE time-code requires the same device to both generate the timecode audio, and read it back.

The way this used to work in the tape days was (I'll use my old PPS-100 SMPTE converter and MT8X 8 track as an example):

• I'd sync my PPS-100 to Cakewalk using MTC (MIDI Time Code) - i.e. Cakewalk is sending MTC over a MIDI cable, and the PPS-100 is receiving it -  and and set the PPS-100 to generate a SMPTE time-code signal.
• I'd arm track 8 on my MT8X, start recording on it, then press play within Cakewalk.   The PPS-100 would generate a time-code audio which was then recorded on to track 8 of the MT8X.
•  I'd then set the PPS-100 to read mode, and take a direct audio out from track 8 into the PPS-100.  The MIDI output of the PPS-100 was then plugged into the MIDI IN of my MIDI interface for Cakewalk to receive.  I'd then set Cakewalk to slave to MTC.

So at that point, my MT8X is now the master.  I could FFWD to any part of the tape, press play and Cakewalk would automatically go to the correct position.

Cakewalk has no need for a SMPTE audio generator/reader, as it has an internal digital clock (either from the PC, or your audio interface). 

Cakewalk does however transmit MTC, and MIDI Song Position Pointer information.  This is basically the same as SMPTE, except over a MIDI cable.

First, I'd check with your lighting guy to see if the rig will accept MTC over a MIDI cable - if it does, then all you need is a MIDI interface/cable, and to set Cakewalk to transmit MTC and MIDI Song Position Pointers.

If it doesn't, then you need a hardware box (such as the JL Cooper PPS-100) that will convert MTC to SMPTE.  Bear in mind, the PPS-100 is very old now and no longer in production... I'm not sure you can even get the equivalent of these devices new nowadays.
 

[John Vere]

Basically if you want to automate a light show while using backing tracks you need to use a DAW that handles both Midi and Audio for your playback engine which most do including Cakewalk. Cakewalk has a Playlist feature just for this. 

 I have never heard of a lighting rig using SMPTE?  But Midi to DMX is common. 

 

[msmcleod]

Just now, JohnnyV said:

 I have never heard of a lighting rig using SMPTE?  But Midi to DMX is common. 

MIDI to DMX is more common in prosumer devices, where the lights are being directly controlled by MIDI  ( I so wanted one when they first came out! )

The more high end lighting rigs use SMPTE, as they have their own light sequencer software built in,  controlling literally hundreds or thousands of lights.

[ED To Shred]

Back in the day we used to use a device to stripe timecode track 16 on a tascam tape machine. Then use that to lock the computer to it. So, I understand that application. And what you both said about being able to output SMPTE from the audio interface/midi from the DAW is what I was planning on doing at the live show. I'll have Cakewalk running the backing tracks and output the SMPTE to the Lighting/Laser guy. But.... to be able to program it remotely, he needs a 2 channel mp3 or wave with the mono music on one side and the timecode on the other. This will allow him to create the show synced to the music. Then at the live show, the DAW will be sending him the Timecode locking the pre-programmed lasers and lights to the music.

[ED To Shred]

5 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

MIDI to DMX is more common in prosumer devices, where the lights are being directly controlled by MIDI  ( I so wanted one when they first came out! )

The more high end lighting rigs use SMPTE, as they have their own light sequencer software built in,  controlling literally hundreds or thousands of lights.

Yeah, these guys are using Pangolin for the laser software. It reads the SMPTE and will lock to it with an audio signal with the SMPTE. So, now... I'm reading through my audio interface's doc's to see if I can figure out how to output the audio smpte... If I can get that, I'll just loop it back in and lay a "stripe" to output for them to program with.

[msmcleod]

1 minute ago, ED To Shred said:

Back in the day we used to use a device to stripe timecode track 16 on a tascam tape machine. Then use that to lock the computer to it. So, I understand that application. And what you both said about being able to output SMPTE from the audio interface/midi from the DAW is what I was planning on doing at the live show. I'll have Cakewalk running the backing tracks and output the SMPTE to the Lighting/Laser guy. But.... to be able to program it remotely, he needs a 2 channel mp3 or wave with the mono music on one side and the timecode on the other. This will allow him to create the show synced to the music. Then at the live show, the DAW will be sending him the Timecode locking the pre-programmed lasers and lights to the music.

The point is... what is generating/reading the SMTPE timecode audio?  You need something to generate that SMPTE audio to record it in Cakewalk, just as you did on your tascam - and it has to be the same device,  or a compatible device, that will be read by the lighting rig.  The SMPTE audio code you use for striping is not standard across devices.

[ED To Shred]

1 minute ago, msmcleod said:

The point is... what is generating/reading the SMTPE timecode audio?  You need something to generate that SMPTE audio to record it in Cakewalk, just as you did on your tascam - and it has to be the same device,  or a compatible device, that will be read by the lighting rig.  The SMPTE audio code you use for striping is not standard across devices.

I'm still working that part out. It seems assinine that in this day and age, a modern daw/interface can't spit out audio timecode. I'm getting ready to call laser guy... I'm sure they have people running up against this all the time. So, I'm hoping they have suggestions on a clean and easy solution.

[ED To Shred]

Thanks for the input, gang!

 

 

[msmcleod]

1 minute ago, ED To Shred said:

It seems assinine that in this day and age, a modern daw/interface can't spit out audio timecode.

Like I said, even if the DAW could generate some SMPTE audio code for striping, it wouldn't make much difference - the audio SMPTE striping devices generate/read is not standard in any way, only the SMPTE itself is.

As an analogy... I take a 1K text document and save it on to tape in an old Commodore 64....  I take exactly the same 1K text document and save it on to tape on an old ZX Spectrum ( Timex 2000 for you guys across the pond ).  The  1K text is exactly the same, but there's no way the ZX Spectrum will load it from the Commodore 64 tape , or vice-versa.

In this analogy, the 1K text is your SMPTE, and what is on tape is the striped timecode.

[ED To Shred]

I get what you're saying. They all have proprietary encoding for their implementation. Hopefully, the conversation with the programmer over there will yield some answers. They have people doing it all the time... so, I just need to figure out what their process is.

[OutrageProductions]

SMPTE/EBU is a worldwide standard for longitudinal timecode as an audio stream.

I used to own an Otari TC gen/rdr that was battery powered and was about 4"x5"x1.5" with display... just looked for it in my accessories storage and it is gone. 

However, it was very similar in appearance and operation to THIS.

You could find out what frame rate (24/25/30/29.97/df) that you need to use, record the output of this unit on right channel, music on left. Boom... done.

Edited July 4, 2023 by OutrageProductions

[user 905133]

Not that you mention it, IIRC I did have a pre-windows interface that could stripe SMPTE, but I think there was an error in the firmware or somewhere that made it start with a huge number so a large offset was needed.  Anyone remember the CMS-444z?  I think I got it bundled from CMS [Computer Music Supply] with Cakewalk for MS-DOS.

Edited July 4, 2023 by User 905133
fixed typos

[JnTuneTech]

Unless I am reading things wrong (it's been a long time since I put on the AV lighting hat), it sounds as though you are being asked to create a mix with SMPTE LTC alongside - as a master (not slaving Cakewalk to it at all). If so, as @OutrageProductions mentions, you get a timecode generator. I know one of my clients has a dedicated hardware unit for that buried somewhere, we used to stripe broadcast TV segments when needed... years ago. 

There are software SMPTE code generators out there, I've even seen a free Web app (Warning: I have no idea if the site is safe, but have seen users from other forums say they've used it..) https://elteesee.pehrhovey.net/ - which will generate a file for you, as well.  I know some other DAWs have transport to LTC plugins, but I would think lighting just needs a solid time reference provided bound to your audio mix. Not necessarily to follow timing, just position. The starting frame would be the most important. 

Then the other consideration - are they playing/lighting your audio one track at a time, or in a sequence? For the latter, you would need a timed playback mix of all the program material, with one continuous SMPTE timecode reference. -In my experience anyway. -Apologies if this doesn't match your actual need.

[ED To Shred]

30 minutes ago, JnTuneTech said:

Unless I am reading things wrong (it's been a long time since I put on the AV lighting hat), it sounds as though you are being asked to create a mix with SMPTE LTC alongside - as a master (not slaving Cakewalk to it at all). If so, as @OutrageProductions mentions, you get a timecode generator. I know one of my clients has a dedicated hardware unit for that buried somewhere, we used to stripe broadcast TV segments when needed... years ago. 

There are software SMPTE code generators out there, I've even seen a free Web app (Warning: I have no idea if the site is safe, but have seen users from other forums say they've used it..) https://elteesee.pehrhovey.net/ - which will generate a file for you, as well.  I know some other DAWs have transport to LTC plugins, but I would think lighting just needs a solid time reference provided bound to your audio mix. Not necessarily to follow timing, just position. The starting frame would be the most important. 

Then the other consideration - are they playing/lighting your audio one track at a time, or in a sequence? For the latter, you would need a timed playback mix of all the program material, with one continuous SMPTE timecode reference. -In my experience anyway. -Apologies if this doesn't match your actual need.

You're brilliant! I just need the time code in a wave file. I can drop that right into Cakewalk and use the output from that in the programming track and the output at the show. So simple it was hard! Thank you!

[JnTuneTech]

5 hours ago, ED To Shred said:

So simple it was hard!

Yes, with a multi-channel audio interface, it can work old school that way. -Now I remember putting SMPTE LTC on a track for the super 8 film projector of my film audio school project - just the same way... to sync film with an audio mix, before Cakewalk days...  Lighting automation can work the same way!

Just for reference - in case it isn't obvious, but you can't change the Cakewalk tempo, or the relative start frame & match of the LTC track (unless you need some offset), after you make the hand off to the lighting designer, or lights won't match. You can continue to adjust the mix if needed though.

Edited July 4, 2023 by JnTuneTech
clarifications...

[user 905133]

• SMPTE/MIDI time code synchronization
  • To use Cakewalk as the master MTC generator
  • To configure Cakewalk to sync to SMPTE/MTC

Quote

SMPTE/MIDI time code synchronization

SMPTE/MIDI Time Code Sync (SMPTE/MTC) is another method of synchronization that lets Cakewalk act as a master or slave to external devices. Cakewalk can send or receive SMPTE/MTC messages to or from external devices that can generate or receive MTC. Cakewalk can send MTC on multiple output ports simultaneously.

SMPTE/MTC is a position and timing reference that indicates the current location in the project and how quickly the project should be playing. Time code labels the position in a project in hours, minutes, seconds, and frames. The speed of playback is indicated by a frame rate.

Time code is recorded onto tape using a device called a time code generator. The process of recording a time code signal onto a track is called striping. Normally, the start of a tape stripe has a particular time, expressed in hours, minutes, seconds, and frames. For example, the tape stripe might start at 00:00:00:00, 01:00:00:00, or any other time. The material recorded on the tape usually starts anywhere from 10 seconds to several minutes after the start of the time code. Sometimes, the tape stripe starts at a time like 00:59:50:00, and the material starts 10 seconds later, at 01:00:00:00.

The way I read the documentation, Cakewalk does not generate SMPTE time code (nor has it ever so far as I can remember).

I never tried using an external device (generator) to record SMPTE to an audio track in Cakewalk.