PavlovsCat Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, Old Joad said: But Gene Krupa was better? Rich was far more technically skilled, but I agree, I enjoyed Krupa's drumming much more than Buddy's. Krupa was more creative, his playing had more soul. I also got to meet and hang with another jazz drumming great a couple of years after meeting Buddy, Louie Bellson, who was a great big band drummer and one of the kindest men I've ever met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said: Well, I think you can tell from my handle whose jazz drumming I prefer. Buddy was a technician, a brilliant one. But I think of him as the Yngwie Malmsteen of drums. Amazing chops, but is it musical? Do I ever want to throw on an album where he's playing in a band, or is it just YouTube videos of his solos? Gene could drive an entire big band. With Buddy it was all about his spotlighted solos. Elvin Jones is another fave of mine because of the way he could drive a band. Early on in my drum learning, I read a quote from Elvin saying that in a small combo, the drummer is the conductor. That was like a lightning bolt to my understanding of the role of a drummer, the power the drummer holds over the entire band's dynamics. A good drummer knows when to fade into the background, knows when to step forward to serve the music that's being created. I've never heard an example of Buddy doing that. With Buddy, the rest of the band wasn't important, he probably saw them as backing him up. For a drummer, that isn't a recipe for music that I want to listen to. I've noticed that most of the drummers I admire were/are somewhat humble regarding their role in the band. Elvin also said that he believed that his purpose in life was to play in the John Coltrane Quartet. He said that after he left Coltrane. Playing in that band was his masterwork. Neil Peart, famously reclusive. Ringo Starr, famously humble. Ever hear Alex Van Halen go on about how great he is? Nope, he left that kind of talk to his brother. Bonham? Yeah, he dissed Karen Carpenter when he lost out to her in the Playboy Poll, but I'll cut him slack for that one. Karen was a good soft rock player, but that was about it. Just my opinion, and of course not a popular one. I completely agree with you. Buddy is not one of my favorite jazz drummers. I prefer Gene Krupa, Max Roach, Elvin Jones and Joe Morello. But my mother was a musician and took me to see Buddy Rich for my birthday, and he was technically amazing to watch. But yes, I thought his playing was all about technique and not much about feel and playing from the heart. Joe Morello was the opposite (don't get me wrong, he had great technique, he just wasn't a show off; Buddy was an egotistical drummer; Joe's playing reflected humility and put the song first) stylistically, and I greatly prefer his playing. Edited June 13, 2023 by PavlovsCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said: Joe Morello was the opposite stylistically, and I greatly prefer his playing. My mom was a big Brubeck fan, so I was exposed to plenty of Mr. Morello's playing when I was little. She also had a copy of Herb Alpert Presents Sergio Mendes and Brasil '66, and I love love love Joao Palma's playing on that record. That clip from the Sammy Davis Jr. show. There are actually at least 3 great drummers on that stage (probably 4, don't know who was playing in Sammy's band at that time but he had to have had some chops to keep up). Sammy, among his many talents, could tear it up on the drum kit: Prince never mentioned being influenced by Sammy Davis Jr. (at least that I know of), but the whole "brilliant multi-instrumentalist and dancer" thing, Prince was my age and must have watched a lot of Sammy as a kid. I remember Sammy tap dancing in platform shoes on the Flip Wilson show, just killing it. Prince never reached Sammy's level of acting talent.? Edited June 13, 2023 by Starship Krupa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 @Starship KrupaWe've turned this into a thread all about jazz drummers -- and I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Just now, PavlovsCat said: @Starship KrupaWe've turned this into a thread all about jazz drummers -- and I love it! I know, huh? This is the only forum I've ever participated in where topics actually improve. Not all the time, but I've seen trolling rants turn into thoughtful discussions and in depth useful critique. We went from Donny and Marie to Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, Sammy Davis, Jr. Joe Morello and Prince! How about Jeff Porcaro's playing on Katy Lied? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said: I know, huh? This is the only forum I've ever participated in where topics actually improve. Not all the time, but I've seen trolling rants turn into thoughtful discussions and in depth useful critique. We went from Donny and Marie to Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, Sammy Davis, Jr. Joe Morello and Prince! How about Jeff Porcaro's playing on Katy Lied? Porcaro's grooves were awesome. I went to a drum clinic for one of my childhood favorite drummers, Billy Cobham back in the 80s, and he was absolutely amazing. I saw Cobham and Vinnie Coliaiuta as the kind of drummer I wanted to be. But Cobham was incredibly egotistical and went on a several minute rant insulting Porcaro's drumming as untalented, uncreative and fluff drumming. But I loved Porcaro's drumming too. His feel on so many songs was great. His shuffles were killer. But if I could only pick one drummer, it would be Omar Hawkim. No matter what genre of music, he's an amazingly gifted drummer with great feel. Back in the day, drummers would always compare me to Peart, probably because I liked doing fast, precise fills, but while I love Rush, Peart was never one of my favorites. I was more inspired by guys like Coliluita and Cobham. So, now I'm transitioning to rock drummers, are you with me? If so, state some favorites! Edited June 13, 2023 by PavlovsCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said: So, now I'm transitioning to rock drummers, are you with me? If so, state some favorites! Some of my favorite playing is from Alan White on Oasis' What's the Story Morning Glory? His version of the lazy Manchester beat is stellar. And often played with rutes instead of sticks. This is a different Alan White from the Yes drummer. Speaking of which, Bruford has played some pretty tasty stuff. Nigel Olsson with Elton John, Bonham, Moon (his stage presence very much influenced by Krupa), Ringo of course, Hal Blaine. I like Peart, it's tough to be that complex and still serve the music, which I think his playing did. Whoever played drums on American Analog Set's Promise of Love. I have listened to this song many times on headphones, playing along on my Slingerlands: Tony Allen's playing on this track from AIR's Pocket Symphony (this version cuts off the intro somewhat, but it doesn't hurt it much). Allen had a history that included playing with one of music's most evil assholes, someone I won't even mention, but he tears it up here: Edited June 13, 2023 by Starship Krupa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Also Steve Jansen's playing on his brother David Sylvian's Brilliant Trees: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 50 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said: Some of my favorite playing is from Alan White on Oasis' What's the Story Morning Glory? His version of the lazy Manchester beat is stellar. And often played with rutes instead of sticks. This is a different Alan White from the Yes drummer. Speaking of which, Bruford has played some pretty tasty stuff. Nigel Olsson with Elton John, Bonham, Moon (his stage presence very much influenced by Krupa), Ringo of course, Hal Blaine. I like Peart, it's tough to be that complex and still serve the music, which I think his playing did. Whoever played drums on American Analog Set's Promise of Love. I have listened to this song many times on headphones, playing along on my Slingerlands: Tony Allen's playing on this track from AIR's Pocket Symphony (this version cuts off the intro somewhat, but it doesn't hurt it much). Allen had a history that included playing with one of music's most evil assholes, someone I won't even mention, but he tears it up here: Bill Bruford is one of my favorite rock drummers. I didn't know Alan White of Oasis name, but of course, I know their music. I was thrown that his name was Alan White, as there was already a pretty famous Alan White drummer out of the UK (Yes, John Lennon, etc; Yes is also among my favorite bands). I like both of those tunes you shared. Very cool and I wasn't familiar with either band, so I need to explore more! Thanks. I love learning about cool bands (new to me, in this case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 5 hours ago, PavlovsCat said: I like both of those tunes you shared. Very cool and I wasn't familiar with either band, so I need to explore more! Thanks. I love learning about cool bands (new to me, in this case). Nice. And thanks for asking, it got me to think about what drummers I really like, and listening later I realized that all 3 of these songs have similarities in the beats. The time signatures ain't strictly 4/4, and I want to start being able to "hear" beats like that in my head, whereas I'm as stuck on 4/4 as your usual American rock loving boy. I've been musically blocked for the past few months due to some mind-bending financial challenges (rescued at the last minute by an inheritance a few days ago). I think what I want to do is take some of these loping beats and transcribe them into the DAW. This kind of thing might go pretty well with the downtempo stuff I want to explore. I'll leave you with a clip I watched over and over and over when I first started playing drums and was also not coincidentally recovering from a horrible episode of major depression. These guys weren't playing music, or even channeling it, they WERE music: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Joad Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Don't forget Dino Danelli of The Young Rascals: That guy killed it, and the reason I got into drumming?? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Joad Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 12 hours ago, PavlovsCat said: And I have my own first hand Buddy story! I got to hang out with him on his bus and had an opportunity to sit in with his band (I wisely declined). He was brutal to his bassist all night, but he couldn't have been nicer to me. But I was a 16 year old drummer in awe of him. He loved it. If you look through my Facebook photos. I shared one of the pictures I took of Buddy that night. It's awesome that you got to hang out with these guys, you must of learned a lot from it?? I saw the son of Buddy Rich on T.V. a few years back, he was pretty good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 6 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: Nice. And thanks for asking, it got me to think about what drummers I really like, and listening later I realized that all 3 of these songs have similarities in the beats. The time signatures ain't strictly 4/4, and I want to start being able to "hear" beats like that in my head, whereas I'm as stuck on 4/4 as your usual American rock loving boy. I've been musically blocked for the past few months due to some mind-bending financial challenges (rescued at the last minute by an inheritance a few days ago). I think what I want to do is take some of these loping beats and transcribe them into the DAW. This kind of thing might go pretty well with the downtempo stuff I want to explore. I'll leave you with a clip I watched over and over and over when I first started playing drums and was also not coincidentally recovering from a horrible episode of major depression. These guys weren't playing music, or even channeling it, they WERE music: I love Coltrane. He and Davis made some of my favorite jazz music of all time and my kids grew up on that stuff and love it too. Great taste! I'd like to think, if I didn't have a physical injury that stopped me from playing, I'd likely be playing jazz these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 3 hours ago, Old Joad said: Don't forget Dino Danelli of The Young Rascals: That guy killed it, and the reason I got into drumming?? I got into drumming because my siblings were forming a band and needed a drummer (piano was my instrument, but both of my sisters played piano and organ and were older and far more advanced players, so I became the drummer). But it was years later, at around age 7, when I heard The Who that I felt an unstoppable desire to be a rock and roll drummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBH Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Whoever actually produced that Donny & Marie segment is a full out .......... umm ok so to say something good about it.....they didn't use autotune. - the wacka wacka wha wha part during the synchronized ice skating is what really made it all worth while. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) 59 minutes ago, RBH said: Whoever actually produced that Donny & Marie segment is a full out .......... umm ok so to say something good about it.....they didn't use autotune. - the wacka wacka wha wha part during the synchronized ice skating is what really made it all worth while. Off topic. We haven't discussed that video for probably a dozen posts! We switched to drummers, then Coltrane. We're going to discuss jazz fusion next. Stay with it, man. I kid, I kid. I'd love to get Donald Fagan's thoughts on the Donny and Marie cover. Edited June 13, 2023 by PavlovsCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Joad Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Jazz Fusion George Benson - Affirmation: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigb Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 4 hours ago, PavlovsCat said: Off topic. In the Coffee House??! ? (The only thing "off topic" is staying on topic! ? ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 14, 2023 Author Share Posted June 14, 2023 6 minutes ago, craigb said: In the Coffee House??! ? (The only thing "off topic" is staying on topic! ? ) To be fair, I was only being silly. But the Deals forum is non stop tangents too and I actually enjoy it and am a repeat offender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bats brew Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 didn't pat boone do war pigs? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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