BR: Plugin volume is reduced on export

[Jacques Boileau]

This happens with one plugin for me. But it happens on every project. I have contacted the plugin manufacturer and they do not see the problem, but I can't tell if they tried it with Cakewalk. I am reporting this bug here in case it could be some incompatibility that Cakewalk introduces.

The plugin is Arturia's Rev Plate-140 reverb. I use it on vocals through a reverb bus. My vocals go to one or more vocal busses and use the send on those busses to send the vocals to the reverb on the reverb bus. Of course the reverb is set to 100% wet in that case. I set the reverb's level on that bus to taste.

When I export the song the reverb level is dramatically lower than what I have set it. Moreover, when the I play back the song in Cakewalk after the export the level is also dropped to the same level as in the export! The slider is in the same position, but the level is lower as can be heard and seen on the VU. I need to close and reopen Cakewalk and the project to have the level back to its original level. But there is no way to export these projects with the correct amount of reverb.

It is a shame since I like this reverb very much. The only solution for now is to use another reverb plugin.

[Lord Tim]

Weird!

One solution is to add in some other plugin (even, say, Sonitus EQ) after the reverb on the bus and have the output gain turned up by the same amount that this thing is dropping, and leave it in bypass mode for when you're mixing. Then on export, enable it.

Not overly elegant but if you do love the sound of that reverb, that's a way to at least get around the problem.

[OutrageProductions]

You must have a routing/bussing issue. I've been using the Auturia Plate 140 for years with absolutely no problems. What I hear on my Master is exactly what gets exported.

[Jacques Boileau]

7 minutes ago, OutrageProductions said:

You must have a routing/bussing issue. I've been using the Auturia Plate 140 for years with absolutely no problems. What I hear on my Master is exactly what gets exported.

Could be, although I don't know how to look for this. But somehow I doubt it because if I switch reverb plugin in the same project, everything works fine. But I will investgate with starting a new project from scratch and just adding an audio track and a bus for the reverb.

[Jacques Boileau]

2 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

Weird!

One solution is to add in some other plugin (even, say, Sonitus EQ) after the reverb on the bus and have the output gain turned up by the same amount that this thing is dropping, and leave it in bypass mode for when you're mixing. Then on export, enable it.

Not overly elegant but if you do love the sound of that reverb, that's a way to at least get around the problem.

Thanks for the work around, but I doubt I would go to that much trouble and I would probably forget to enable/disable it many times. I think I would look for a replacement reverb if I can't get this resolved. I do love the sound of that reverb, but buried into a rock mix, it may not make that much a difference to use another plate reverb. It is one thing to listen to a vocal through it alone than with a few doubled rock guitars, drums, bass and keyboards added to the mix!

[Larioso]

Did you try online, realtime, rendering?

- more tedious but if you like the plugin

 

I use realtime rendering as I record a Lexicon rack MX200 unit all the time. As when I render external midi gear. You get used to it.

 

I had another issue with Arturia AnalogLab plugin more than 10 years ago.

- opening a project it was -12 dB level

- but opening gui once it was normal for that session

[Jacques Boileau]

6 hours ago, Larioso said:

Did you try online, realtime, rendering?

- more tedious but if you like the plugin

 

I use realtime rendering as I record a Lexicon rack MX200 unit all the time. As when I render external midi gear. You get used to it.

 

I had another issue with Arturia AnalogLab plugin more than 10 years ago.

- opening a project it was -12 dB level

- but opening gui once it was normal for that session

Thanks, I'll give that a try out of curiosity. Not sure I love this reverb enough to always use real time export though...

[Bristol_Jonesey]

Check the outputs of your busses - where are they going?

It sounds like the reverb buss is going somewhere different to the others.

They should all be going to your Master bus and from there to your Interface/Main Outs/Hardware

[John Vere]

+1 to what @Bristol_Joneseysaid that was my first thought when I read this. I always mute the Master bus and you’ll be surprised how many times I found something still playing. Also solo your vocal bus. 
You mentioned having your vocals going to multiple buses?  
Another long shot would be the reverb is receiving automation or a midi Learn function. 

[Jacques Boileau]

All valid points, but since:

• After the export, if I start playback in Cakewalk, the level is down on playback also, as can be heard and seen in the VU. If I close and reopen the project, the level is back to normal.
• Exchanging for another reverb fixes the problem.

I doubt this is a routing problem. But I will check. I will make a new basic project with a single track and a single bus and check the behaviour.

Like I said, I can use another reverb... but my curiosity forces me to investigate! ?

[Max Arwood]

Sounds like a volume / gain env on the bus or somewhere. You could also try turning off the reverb and adding another copy of it. It that works, it’s possible  an envelope problem. 

[John Vere]

There are lots of free reverbs. This shows 8 pages in a simple search. https://plugins4free.com/search?term=reverb

This has been my go to for a long time now. As you say reverb is not a critical part of a Rock song. This one does the job and it's free. Very low CPU. You got to like the interface. 

https://acondigital.com/products/verberate-basic/ 

[bitflipper]

3 hours ago, Max Arwood said:

Sounds like a volume / gain env on the bus or somewhere. You could also try turning off the reverb and adding another copy of it. It that works, it’s possible  an envelope problem. 

The flaw in that theory is that Jacques says it sounds normal up until he exports the project, after which it continues to exhibit lower output. If that's accurate, then I am stumped because the act of exporting should have no impact on a plugin's behavior that wouldn't also be heard in normal playback.

The test project he's going to do will be illuminating. It'll be interesting if the behavior can be reproduced with a minimal project (one audio track, one bus with the plate on it, both routed to a common master bus and then to hardware outs). I'm guessing it won't, and that the issue lies within the specific project.

[Jacques Boileau]

Thanks guys for all your input. I tried quite a few things tonight and here are my findings.

• If I create a new project with one vocal track going to a vocal bus (to be similar to my project) which has its send going to a reverb bus with Rev-140 on it. Everything works fine even after export. That explains why some of you see this plugin working fine. It has to do with my project configuration.
• I have confirmed that there are no automation in the faulty project.
• I made a copy of the faulty project and removed all tracks except one vocal track, the vocal bus and the reverb bus. To be as minimal as my test above. The problem was reproducible.

So it seems that it is a particular configuration in my project that runs havoc with this plugin. I don't know what yet, but I will probably redo my project template from scratch and see if it is something with the template I reuse all the time.

5 hours ago, bitflipper said:

The flaw in that theory is that Jacques says it sounds normal up until he exports the project, after which it continues to exhibit lower output. If that's accurate, then I am stumped because the act of exporting should have no impact on a plugin's behavior that wouldn't also be heard in normal playback.

Yep, that is exactly what is happening and it baffles me too! It should not be possible. But as with many other unbelievable things: it's magic until we discover what is happening!

[bitflipper]

And you're certain it's just this plugin? If you bypass it and add a different reverb plugin the problem does not persist? If it does persist, what happens if you delete the Rev-140 and leave the alternate reverb in?

[Jacques Boileau]

BTW one pretty close free alternative to PLATE Rev-140 is epicPlate by Variety of Sound.

[Jacques Boileau]

20 minutes ago, bitflipper said:

And you're certain it's just this plugin? If you bypass it and add a different reverb plugin the problem does not persist? If it does persist, what happens if you delete the Rev-140 and leave the alternate reverb in?

Yes, as far as I can tell, but of course I haven't tried every reverb. Here is the latest test I did after reading your post.

In my project I now have both epicPlate and Rev-140 on my reverb bus.

• First I disable Rev-140 and enable epicPlate. After an export the reverb level stays the same.
• Then I enable Rev-140 and disable epicPlate. After an export the reverb level drops.

EDIT: Just did one more thing:

If after the last test, when the level has dropped, without doing any more export just playback, I switch which plugin is enabled I get these results:

• With epicPlate the level is always correct.
• With Rev-140 the level is always dropped

This means that the drop in volume is probably stored somewhere in the Rev-140 plugin or at least in whatever wrapper code Cakewalk has around plugins.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Jacques Boileau

[bitflipper]

Yup, it's sure looking like something weird happening within the plugin. Still a puzzle why others haven't experienced the same thing, e.g. OutrageProductions saying he's used it "for years" with no problems. I don't have it myself, so am unable to test.

At this point I'd be inclined to just substitute a different plate reverb and move on. The Rev-140 is a very good one but fortunately it's not unique and there are plenty of alternatives to choose from.

Q: just for thoroughness, does it misbehave in the same way when used as a track insert rather than on a bus?

[Max Arwood]

I have plate 140. If you want to post a link to a google drive or something, I would be glad to take a look. I am very curious about what’s going on. If you could make a bun, that would work. If you don’t have a google drive I could set up a folder for you to upload the project to my google drive.
 

[Jacques Boileau]

5 hours ago, Max Arwood said:

I have plate 140. If you want to post a link to a google drive or something, I would be glad to take a look. I am very curious about what’s going on. If you could make a bun, that would work. If you don’t have a google drive I could set up a folder for you to upload the project to my google drive.
 

I just spent an hour trying to create a minimal project to show the problem and was unable to. I made a one track test using one of my project, removing everything except one vocal track and the reverb bus. I can reproduce the problem, but when I try to remove other effect plugin on the bus and vocal track to make it leaner, the problem disappears! The last test I did is one with only the plugins on the vocal track disabled and every other plugin still in place on busses, and the problem disappears. I tried removing one plugin at a time on the vocal track in an attempt to figure if it is one in particular that causes this effect but with no luck yet.

But, since I caught my wife searching on the internet for mental institution in our area ?, I believe it is time to move on for now.  I may do some more test in the future, at least try again to use the plugin in other projects but keep an eye for the problem in export. epicPlate is a good compromise to fall back on.

For what it is worth, I seem to have more problem reproducing the problem using the new 1.6 version of the plugin. But it may be just me having spent waaaay too much time on this and loosing perspective.