2 MIDI Keyboards Simultaneously Active?

[musikman1]

Hi

Right now I have a dedicated MAudio MIDI keyboard that I use for most things, but I would also like to use one (or more) of my other keyboards as a MIDi controller as well, mainly because of the touch of the other keyboard being more suitable to whatever VSTi instrument sound I'm using at the time.  (ie...for example....my semi-weighted keyboard is more comfortable for playing grand piano sounds than my MIDI controller keyboard)

Can CWbBL support having 2 MIDI keyboard controllers operating at the same time?   I'd like to always have them both connected, active, and ready to use in the DAW so I can move to either one as needed, without re-configuring setup or restarting CW each time I want to switch from one to the other.  Can CW even support having two keyboard controllers on the list simultaneously, or is only one allowed at a time? I haven't been able to find a definitive answer to this in my forum searches, nor have I found any info on how to set this up.  Any help appreciated, thanks!

Edited April 4, 2023 by musikman1

[JnTuneTech]

Basically, MIDI input choices, -as well as audio, are dependent on your I/O device capabilities. Then you go to device setup in Cakewalk. If you actually have 2 or more devices available, then yes, you can keep them on & available for Cakewalk to use, however you want to route them.

-Do you use an audio interface with MIDI I/O, or are you using just keyboard USB for inputs? You can mix & match as well, I bet the M-Audio has an option to connect to additional external standard cabled MIDI devices, etc.

[msmcleod]

@JnTuneTech is correct.   Set the MIDI Input of one synth track to your first keyboard, and the MIDI Input of the other synth to your second keyboard.  If you want to play both keyboards at once, you'll also need to enable echo on the non-active track.

Here I've got Cobalt set to input from Korg microKey 61, and SI Strings to input from my Keystation Mini 32:

[musikman1]

On 4/3/2023 at 11:35 PM, JnTuneTech said:

-Do you use an audio interface with MIDI I/O, or are you using just keyboard USB for inputs? You can mix & match as well, I bet the M-Audio has an option to connect to additional external standard cabled MIDI devices, etc.

I've always used my M-Audio keyboard. In fact, it's a dinosaur, it's an MK361C, barely got the drivers to work on Windows10, but it works.  I use just a USB cable from that directly to a USB input on my PC.   The other keyboard is also a dino, it's a Korg Triton Studio. No USB option, so I would have to use a standard MIDI cable from the Triton to my little Audiobox, then a standard USB cable from there to my PC. I haven't tried hooking that up yet, but that's the plan for now, unless I buy a new MIDI controller in the near future.   ...also, I assume that CW will recognize the Audiobox immediately once I connect it?...hopefully no snags there...we'll see.

18 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Set the MIDI Input of one synth track to your first keyboard, and the MIDI Input of the other synth to your second keyboard.  If you want to play both keyboards at once, you'll also need to enable echo on the non-active track.

I would likely never be needing to play both at once, but duly noted, thank you.   I'm just going to want to turn off the Local control on the Triton because I'll just be needing to use it to trigger whatever VSTi I have loaded in CW.  In addition, I won't need most of the other MIDI info sent, like program change, etc.... just want it to play the VSTi synth.  I'll want the pitch bend and Mod wheel to operate, but other than that not much else.

I am shopping around for a not-too-expensive MIDI controller keyboard.  I wish I could get a 73 or 76 key, but there are not many choices out there. Most are 61 key.  The thing is, I'll need something semi-weighted, that way it will have somewhat of a piano feel when I need it, but will not be sluggish when I need to play organ or synth sounds.  M-Audio has one for about $199.00, but I'd like to demo it first if I can find one at the local music store....and it's only 61 keys, so there's that. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by musikman1

[JnTuneTech]

14 hours ago, musikman1 said:

M-Audio has one for about $199.00, but I'd like to demo it first if I can find one at the local music store....and it's only 61 keys, so there's that. 

I hear you on that. I had an issue with my 61 key controller where I thought it was toast (broken key in the middle octave!), and I really was hard pressed to consider ordering something without actually playing it first. -Luckily, I found a replacement key & managed to R&R my old one back to a happy situation. And yes, keyboards larger than 61 are a big jump and harder to find with comparable features to the smaller ones.

14 hours ago, musikman1 said:

also, I assume that CW will recognize the Audiobox immediately once I connect it?

Ah, that of course all depends on drivers, as Cakewalk has nothing to do at that level. But nominally, if you can get working drivers installed, you then can go to device settings in Cakewalk & add the ports you need. -Generally, you will only use one audio interface, but if you have several devices with MIDI I/O installed in Windows, you should be able to choose any or all of those, make them active, and then they can be routed to any track(s) you want. -Right now, for instance, I have about 6 different MIDI inputs I can use on my system, between the sound interface ports and the ones on my keyboards and control surface. They are almost all USB to the PC, but one has a powered hub, and the others are low power, so it all works without any major problems, -except if I accidentally yank out a USB cable, which happens from time to time, -of course!

In any case, once you have more than one MIDI device input set up on the PC, and then in Cakewalk, you will see them all listed as choices in setting up a new track, and as I say, you can mix & match, use separate ones for each track, or route 2 keyboards to one track, -it's all up to you!  -Ahh, wow, I just realized I am old enough to remember when using things like MIDI merge to use multiple keyboards on one synth was a real task, in fact I still have a MOTU brick on my desk that was all that back then... Now Cakewalk & my I/O devices do that all so much easier. -Anyway, glad to hear you are figuring out the options & ready to make it work!

Edited April 5, 2023 by JnTuneTech

[John Vere]

I don’t think there’s a limitation as far as Cakewalk goes. It’s really more to do with how many USB ports your computer has. In the end all midi goes through USB. 
Nothing wrong with older keyboards they are built like tanks and yes most are repairable if you can still get the parts.
What wears out are the silicone contact strips that trigger the keys. I just bought some for a 1987 Roland controller.  If it’s got midi ports it’s good to go.
I was looking at controllers the other day and the one I wanted the Roland A88 MK2 is $$$$$. So I’ll just keep using the old one. 
Only thing to be aware of is older midi gear often has more latency than newer stuff. 
https://youtu.be/CwJ1Ibo1wcE

 

[musikman1]

On 4/5/2023 at 2:39 PM, John Vere said:

I was looking at controllers the other day and the one I wanted the Roland A88 MK2 is $$$$$. So I’ll just keep using the old one. 
Only thing to be aware of is older midi gear often has more latency than newer stuff. 

I hear ya John, I was also looking at that Roland A-88 because I saw them using it on the Spectrasonics Keyscape demo video.  But I was also turned away by the steep price.  I wasn't even aware that the older boards have more latency. I have experienced some of that, but I thought it was more to do with my CW settings than the board, because it seems to only happen when I have a lot of VSTi synths loaded in a project.  Strange though because I have a fairly new and pretty fast PC.

 

On 4/5/2023 at 2:19 PM, JnTuneTech said:

Ah, that of course all depends on drivers, as Cakewalk has nothing to do at that level. But nominally, if you can get working drivers installed, you then can go to device settings in Cakewalk & add the ports you need.

Drivers have always been a thorn in my side for some reason.  M-Audio drivers have always been sketchy. My M-Audio MK361C dinosaur has been notorious for driver installation issues. I usually have my PC tech take care of it for me, otherwise I'll just get frustrated. A few yrs ago they stopped supporting that board and the last driver available was for Windows 7, which luckily worked (eventually) for Win10.  I have a little MidiPlus AKM320 that I use with my laptop just to audition sounds and some basic stuff, and the first time I plugged it in,  Windows immediately recognized it as plug n' play, no pain in the ***** driver installation necessary.  I often wonder why all the MIDI controller manufacturers can't make theirs that easy too. 

[JnTuneTech]

3 hours ago, musikman1 said:

Drivers have always been a thorn in my side for some reason.

I have noticed, that for me anyway, if a USB MIDI device has 2 driver options, one that is generic USB (seems like there is a term but it escapes me right now), and one that is vendor-specific, or especially one that will only work with a vendor-specific USB driver installed, there are driver compatibility problems as they age out of support. -If you have that choice, and you only need MIDI connectivity, the built-in generic MIDI I/O drivers have worked fine for me, with no noticeable latency issues.

-The above only applies to fairly recent devices, say 2010 & on or so, I think. And again, you usually only get basic MIDI functionality from that type of setup, so, if the device has audio and/or other functions, then of course you have to use the vendor supplied driver to get that functionality.

I say that, because you mention an M-Audio USB keyboard, and I have one as well, and have weathered the OS upgrade & out-of-support issues with that as well. -My current M-Audio Axiom 25, which was just pre-AVID, has long been discontinued, and I found that as long as I just plug in the USB and use the generic driver, it works just fine. -No use of the programming functions, but all the keys & controllers work, and even the transport & other controls are fine with Cakewalk, and no latency issues. I have a recent Roland product that allows using just the MIDI without the vendor driver, it's a fairly common thing now. In fact, those type of devices can also often be used with a tablet or cell phone, as a generic MIDI input device.

I have always opted to use the built-in MIDI ports on my sound device, for any keyboard that really seems old (like USB 1.0 era), and just cable up instead of using the USB, as I know the latency & drivers on those old ones will likely just make things sketchy. -But again, most recent USB devices have posed no major problems for me with Cakewalk. Even my control surface with USB has extra cabled MIDI I/O options on the back, and the USB driver is generic, -works fine. -Most of the controllers you are shopping will likely have some legacy MIDI, so just use that to connect the older keyboards.

[John Vere]

I just made this video where I get to the bottom of what midi latency really is. Often people mistakenly say midi latency when it is actually audio latency they are experiencing. 

 

[JnTuneTech]

2 hours ago, John Vere said:

Often people mistakenly say midi latency when it is actually audio latency they are experiencing. 

Definitely a good point to be clear on. There certainly were some old MIDI only devices I have had that used either bad drivers, or slow processing, but that was a long time ago. Most modern devices have little problem with it. -Even the USB class compliant - MIDI generics do just fine nowadays, in my experiences anyway. As per your video, most of the time folks are just getting audio latency, to be sure. -Even running my old MIDI 5-pin cabled legacy equipment through the modern basic USB class-compliant converters makes little difference, -compared to audio latency.

@John Vere - Good work, maybe a bit more than most folks would probably want to try though - nowadays!  -P.S. - I was getting a very constant scratchy sound in the audio mix on later portions of the video, when I played it from YT, using my laptop speakers, -dunno what it would be like with headphones... - did something unintended get introduced with the AV conversion maybe?

[John Vere]

I always proof the video after it uploads and it’s fine on my end. 

[msmcleod]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

I always proof the video after it uploads and it’s fine on my end. 

He's right you know... there's a crackle that starts at around 4:55.  Not very loud to start of with, but gets more noticeable as it goes on.
 

[John Vere]

Hmm I just listened with headphones on and I do hear very faint  artifacts but only a couple and  very hard to notice . My Motu has done this a lot but it’s very noticeable when it happens. Usually after I have worked in Movie maker or watched a video. I have to totally reboot to get rid of it. But I always do that before I do any audio recording now out of habit. Time for a system upgrade I think. 

[sjoens]

Sounds OK here on my Mackie Onyx.

Edited April 7, 2023 by sjoens

[JnTuneTech]

I listened again, and it seems to be on the narration, and again, only near the end of the video.  -I only noticed the most with the small speakers on my work laptop. But it's there in headphones too. -I almost feel bad, -not trying to rail on you - just want to help!!  These things happen to the best of us. ?

-Oh, and if you do update it eventually, you might mention that cheaper keyboards also can have mechanical delay, as some of the cheap keybeds (some of the Akai controllers, for instance) have very cheap contacts, flimsy keys. So that can throw off the measurement process as well. -Not huge, but it all adds up.   -Ah, the modern world.

Edited April 8, 2023 by JnTuneTech
spelling - grammar!

[John Vere]

Thanks. The problem with you tube is there is no way to update a video you have to delete it so all the links posted are all dead after I update.  

I have to sort out what is happening and as I said I’m long overdue for a new computer. It’s been working very hard over the last 3 years. 
I’m 70 years old and I might not hear what younger folks hear anymore.  But that’s all the more reason to get all my songs finished as quickly as possible!  
I was just at a music event where Al Simmons was performing and he’s 80 now. His hands were visually shaking due to Parkinson’s but he is a powerful performer still. 
I have more gigs lined up for this summer than I’ve had for a long long time. Al gives me hope I can carry on for at least another 10 years.  Making the You tubes was just a distraction from what I should be focusing on . I think I’m done with that,   it was fun while it lasted.?

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by John Vere

[JnTuneTech]

@John Vere - The video is plenty helpful as is, don't let the little things stop you!  -Ah yes, older... Dee Long wrote a song with that title in the 70's, and I know more now each day what he was leaning into... Actually, he is still at it too, so there's examples for all of us. I just try to get some good sleep, get up another day and try again!

I don't know about you folks, but I seem to have had much less issue with keyboard - VST latency issues since about the time CbB came out. -Of course, maybe my recent computers have had better USB subsystem connectivity, as I know some of my old PCs had lousy USB performance across the board, but since CbB, Windows 10 1909 or so, my latency issues with MIDI and well-behaving VST instruments has become almost a non-issue for performing even live. Multiple keyboards too. -Maybe I have been lucky, as I see a few more threads here about latency issues, we will have to see what they are getting into I guess!

[John Vere]

As said 99% of the time it’s actually audio latency. As in my video actual midi latency was around 3 ms. The worst was the 1986 Roland controller and even that was only 9 ms. But play a 6 note chord and add a wheel event and that could jump to much more. Midi 2 will eliminate that completely as it will allow for multiple data streams. Midi 1 each event has to wait it’s turn at around 1 ms per data package . 

Edited April 9, 2023 by John Vere

[msmcleod]

Just to put things in context - 3ms latency is what you get if you're speakers are 1m (just over 3') away from you, which I suspect is the minimum distance most people have between their monitor speakers from their ears.

If you have a mic 12" away from a speaker,  you've already introduced almost 1ms latency, as it takes approx 0.9ms for the sound to travel from the speaker to the mic... then think of a drum kit mic'd up, and how far the overheads or room mics are from their source.  

These kind of latencies really aren't anything to be worried about.

[musikman1]

On 4/6/2023 at 9:26 PM, JnTuneTech said:

The above only applies to fairly recent devices, say 2010 & on or so, I think. And again, you usually only get basic MIDI functionality from that type of setup, so, if the device has audio and/or other functions, then of course you have to use the vendor supplied driver to get that functionality.

I think my M-Audio MK361C was first made in the early 2000's or even late 90s. 

Thanks for all the great advice guys, and for the video, it was very informative. I never thought of recording the key strike with a mic, very clever!

I've been re-thinking my strategy slightly. I may try to get a semi-weighted controller that has 76 (hard to find) or 88 keys, instead of using my Triton.  Main reason being the Triton, like all the rest of my keyboards, has 61 keys.  I'd like to have the capability of a full sized keyboard for piano playing, 61 will do for now, but full size would be better.  Semi-weighted also gives me the option to use it for synth playing as well.  I don't need full weighted keys if the semi-weighted board is decent.  I've been looking at the Novation Launchkey 88.  It seems to have pretty decent user reviews, and it's only 18 lbs, and not bulky in weight or size like a digital piano. Price isn't going to break the bank at $359.00 either.   Problem is trying to get my hands on one to demo before making a decision to purchase. Most music stores carry the 61 and 49 key controllers.  Everything else is buy online only, so it's order, try it out, then either keep it or go through the inconvenience of shipping it back to the online vendor.  Anyone have one of these, or have ever tried one out?  I could use the feedback. 

Specs can be found here:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LaunchK3-88--novation-launchkey-88-mk3-88-key-keyboard-controller