Greetings from an old Sonar user

[SuperFreq]

Hi folks, I'm new here but have been using Cakewalk since the old days. Although I've installed the latest CbB and taken it for a test drive, I think for now I'm sticking with my old buggy Sonar 8.5.3, mainly because the layout is perfect for me (when it works), and it has a couple plugins & tools I'd be dead without. Not to mention my main machine is running Windows 7 ? don't laugh, I've stripped it down to maximum efficiency and this thing runs like Jesse Owens at the 1936 Olympics ?

Regardless of what version, I'm really thrilled to see Bandlab is keeping Cakewalk alive & strong (and FREE). Correct me if I'm wrong, is it not the oldest active DAW in the world?

My biggest question is, if I can manage to import all my fav Sonar plugins into CbB, such as the epic VC64 Compressor, is there a way to customize the GUI of CbB to make it look, feel and smell just like Sonar 8.5.3? Has anyone ever created a template or script to do this?

In any case hello! Any other Sonar die hards here?

[Lord Tim]

Not really, honestly. 

I was like you - the X series really was a hard one to get used to initially so I tended to default back to using 8.5.x but I eventually bit the bullet and went all-in on the Skylight interface and I have to tell you, going back to pre-X SONAR felt like a massive step backwards once you work out how flexible it can be.

The biggest thing to get used to is not having Every Damn Button Ever right in front of you in the toolbars - that felt to me like I had a lot of stuff taken away from me, but when you realise it's completely unnecessary depending on how you have your Smart Tool configured, or what you have in the Browser or Multidock, you really don't miss them at all, and you have a far less cluttered UI as a bonus. You can remap keyboard shortcuts to suit 8.5.x if you like, but I'd definitely recommend getting used to the defaults - they're MUCH more well-thought out (eg: B for Browser, I for Inspector, D for multiDock, C for Control bar, etc. etc.)

If you're running 64 bit Windows and 64 bit SONAR + plugins, it should all import in fine. If you're running 32 bit DX/DXi plugins, they won't transfer over because CbB is 64 bit only, and, of course, if you're on 32 bit Windows, you're kind of out of luck. In 2023, you probably shouldn't be running a 32 bit OS for anything though.

X1 was.. what... 2010? 2011? ( @scook help me out here!) so a lot of us who jumped on board have had more than a decade to get used to it all now, and I can't see it leaning back towards the 8.x style GUI in any way at this point, but you can go some ways to customise colours, button icons and layouts by using different themes, which you can see a few amazing user-created ones HERE. I actually think a 8.5.x theme would be pretty cool  

But yeah, my biggest advice is stick with it - give it a few weeks to get used to the new ways it works and the new keyboard shortcuts and I'd say you'll get on board pretty fast.

[msmcleod]

I found the transition from SONAR 8.5 to X1 extremely difficult - the only saving grace was that the keyboard shortcuts were the same.

However X1 was just too unstable for me, so I continued using 8.5 pretty much until X3 came out.

When SONAR Platinum was released I took the time to actually learn it properly by watching the SONAR Platinum Groove 3 tutorial. This was the real game changer, as there were so many things introduced that I was unaware of.

There are a bunch links to video tutorials in the Tutorials section of this forum.  

One of the most comprehensive is the SWA Sonar X2 complete series:  

There's also an X3 follow up series:  

 

[Lord Tim]

Hold up, when did the keyboard shortcuts change? I'm remembering it as from 8.5.x to X1 but was that actually later?

[msmcleod]

3 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Hold up, when did the keyboard shortcuts change? I'm remembering it as from 8.5.x to X1 but was that actually later?

I guess it depends on which keyboard shortcuts!  The main ones I use are essentially the same as they've always been.

The views shortcuts were constantly changing however, which meant struggling to find keyboard stickers that were up to date... I've since given up on keyboard stickers though, as my aging eyes can't read them!

[GreenLight]

I also had the same experience as Lord Tim and msmcleod with the X1 transition: it was hard, but worth it in the end. Give it a try.

But unlike Lord Tim, even to this day miss many of the buttons that were "cleaned out" in X1 GUI overhaul. I always strive for as few clicks as possible to do any given operation – I'm one of the most vocal proponents of keyboard shortcuts on here, I always nag the Bakers about them... ? I still miss having direct buttons (that at the same time act as visual indicators) in the Browser for Enable previewing/looping and selecting output bus.

[Lord Tim]

I have to say I was one of the biggest Stamp My Little Princess Feet Angrily guys when it came to wanting a Ripple Edit and Crossfade indicator on visible buttons - those little things can really add up to a lot of saved time if they're in front of your face, rather than hidden in a menu where you'll accidentally destroy a project because you didn't double check them. So I'm totally on board with the visual indicators thing!

Keyboard shortcuts are definitely my go-to otherwise, although I have made a bunch of buttons in the Custom Module to save me menu diving or just being out of habit. I have Save and Save As on there just because if I'm using the mouse, sometimes it feels easier (mentally easier?) to click a button than CTRL+S it. I also have Cut Special, Copy Special and Paste Special in there, in case I'm deliberately wanting dialogue boxes, and for no menu diving, I have Reverse Clip, Open Meter/Key view, Insert Meter/Key, and Tile Projects in Columns  (I have a 5120x1440 monitor so opening up multiple projects side by side to copy over tracks or settings is easy at the click of a button). 

What I'd love is an extension of that of that module to have icons instead of text labels and have more of them available rather than 9, so that way if anyone was coming from a "I love my toolbars" kind of UI experience, they could effectively recreate it in an entirely optional module. Best of both worlds then.  

You've got me wondering when the big shortcuts overhaul happened now, Mark! I was sure it was 8.5 to X1 but it might have been during some of the first iterations of the X series when it happened. X1 was a pretty rocky start but it came together really well in no time!

[SuperFreq]

Yup you guys know where I'm coming from... I regularly upgraded every edition of Sonar until I hit X1, really didn't like it, and that's how I ended up in my little 8.5 bubble.

When I tried CbB I immediately noticed the missing "Every Damn Button Ever" situation ? and that's what cooled my jets.

Furthermore, I'm a UA hardware user, UAD by association, and their teasing of Luna for Windows made me hold off on any major DAW migrations til I saw what they had to offer. Um... 3 years later they seem to have thrown Windows users under the bus, so CbB is once again my top pick for an upgrade when I'm ready.

That's awesome that CbB will do all the 64 bit Sonar plugins I'm used to. That's a major plus. Customizing its theme to look like 8.5 would make things psychologically easier but I guess it's not imperative. But yeah those buttons... and keyboard shortcuts! Years of using Sonar have programmed my muscle memory into a rhythm of using buttons & shortcuts so it would be a major mind shift to learn to dig through menus.

Sooner or later I'm sure I'll make the move. Probably after my next catastrophic Sonar crash where I lose an entire project (again lol). Those are the times when I'm most likely to make a radical change. We'll see..........

[scook]

8 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

X1 was.. what... 2010? 2011? ( @scook help me out here!)

When it comes to release dates, I use Google for product announcements. 

X1 was announced 8 Dec 2010.

I had purchased every version of SONAR XL/Producer though 8.5 but was busy when X1 was released.

Did not get around to updating until X1 Producer Expanded (patch C or D timeframe) was released. IIRC, there was a promo including a free upgrade to z3ta+ 2.  So missed a fair amount of the excitement regarding the X series.

[abacab]

In addition to the Sonar X1-X3 improvements, Sonar Platinum also had many, many new features/fixes/enhancements from 2015-2017 in the rolling updates.

You can see them described here in the what's new section: https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Whats-New

Then consider the new features that CbB has added since 2017, as well as over 1,000 bug fixes. By these improvements, the Sonar X-series is now ancient history!

https://bandlab.github.io/cakewalk/docs/FAQ/

Edited January 14, 2023 by abacab

[bitflipper]

I was an 8.5 holdout for a long time, too. I didn't take to X1, was disappointed with all the problems that naturally came with such a major rewrite. Bought X2 and X3 too, but decided 8.5 did everything I needed, and had become so natural that it was transparent to the process. I continued to use XP for a long time, too. Same reasons.

My motivator to change was a really good Kontakt library that was too big for the memory limitations of the 32-bit world.  I resented the forced move at the time, but today I don't regret the change at all. I was able to put back the keyboard shortcuts I was used to, some going back to Cakewalk 1.0 for DOS. I still wish I had the option of representing automation in the 8.5 fashion, which I prefer, but got used to that change pretty quickly.

For the most part, the transition was completely painless. All the old projects work in CbB (I even found an old floppy with Cakewalk 1.0 projects and imported them as well!). All the plugins from SONAR work, too. You can keep SONAR installed, as it and CbB can co-exist just fine, so there's no risk of losing past projects. SONAR's chief architect and all-around helpful guy Noel Borthwick is still on the case, adding new goodies and fixing anything that's broken.

Is there anything I can do in CbB but couldn't do in 8.5? Not really. But stability is better (e.g. a crashing plugin is far less likely to crash the DAW) and some new features are genuinely useful (e.g. articulation maps). In terms of comfort and familiarity and not having to think about the DAW while creating music, I'm right back where I was with SONAR 8.5.

[GreenLight]

On 1/14/2023 at 2:09 PM, Lord Tim said:

I have to say I was one of the biggest Stamp My Little Princess Feet Angrily guys when it came to wanting a Ripple Edit and Crossfade indicator on visible buttons - those little things can really add up to a lot of saved time if they're in front of your face, rather than hidden in a menu where you'll accidentally destroy a project because you didn't double check them. So I'm totally on board with the visual indicators thing!

Hahaha, I guess we're all princesses at times. ? I'm glad you appreciate the duality of buttons, not enough people think about that. Well, maybe they have better things to do... ?

On 1/14/2023 at 2:09 PM, Lord Tim said:

Keyboard shortcuts are definitely my go-to otherwise, although I have made a bunch of buttons in the Custom Module to save me menu diving or just being out of habit. I have Save and Save As on there just because if I'm using the mouse, sometimes it feels easier (mentally easier?) to click a button than CTRL+S it. I also have Cut Special, Copy Special and Paste Special in there, in case I'm deliberately wanting dialogue boxes, and for no menu diving, I have Reverse Clip, Open Meter/Key view, Insert Meter/Key, and Tile Projects in Columns  (I have a 5120x1440 monitor so opening up multiple projects side by side to copy over tracks or settings is easy at the click of a button).

Nice, I did not know about this module, could be very useful, thanks! But I agree, a selection of proper icons - with visual indication feedback - would be even more useful. I really, really miss that in the Browser... ?

[SuperFreq]

20 hours ago, bitflipper said:

I was an 8.5 holdout for a long time, too. I didn't take to X1, was disappointed with all the problems that naturally came with such a major rewrite. Bought X2 and X3 too, but decided 8.5 did everything I needed, and had become so natural that it was transparent to the process. I continued to use XP for a long time, too. Same reasons.

My motivator to change was a really good Kontakt library that was too big for the memory limitations of the 32-bit world.  I resented the forced move at the time, but today I don't regret the change at all. I was able to put back the keyboard shortcuts I was used to, some going back to Cakewalk 1.0 for DOS. I still wish I had the option of representing automation in the 8.5 fashion, which I prefer, but got used to that change pretty quickly.

For the most part, the transition was completely painless. All the old projects work in CbB (I even found an old floppy with Cakewalk 1.0 projects and imported them as well!). All the plugins from SONAR work, too. You can keep SONAR installed, as it and CbB can co-exist just fine, so there's no risk of losing past projects. SONAR's chief architect and all-around helpful guy Noel Borthwick is still on the case, adding new goodies and fixing anything that's broken.

Is there anything I can do in CbB but couldn't do in 8.5? Not really. But stability is better (e.g. a crashing plugin is far less likely to crash the DAW) and some new features are genuinely useful (e.g. articulation maps). In terms of comfort and familiarity and not having to think about the DAW while creating music, I'm right back where I was with SONAR 8.5.

Thanks man... to you as well as everyone who has commented their similar experiences. Knowing that I wasn't alone in digging my heels into 8.5, yet seeing how you guys made the transition, is making me want to give CbB another effort. HUGE to hear that CbB is backward compatible with files as old as 1.0 (yes I have a bunch of those ?)!

And indeed the sauce is how much CbB's developers are actively engaged in hearing & addressing your issues. I for one am sick of software companies that hide behind a brick wall, only peeking out occasionally to announce the standard "we're working on a few things".

So for me right now the biggest roadblock is my Windows 7 machine. Honestly I would love to roll back to even XP, like you mentioned, because that thing was stable. But unfortunately for video production (Adobe) you're forced to update to Windows 7 at minimum.

Bottom line, I'm still dragging my heels, but at least my feet are pointed in the right direction.........

[Xoo]

I was much like many of you when the Skylight interface was introduced - but looking at it now, 8.x looks very dated!  That said, there's one feature I truly, really, honestly miss from 8.x (it may have been 8.5 onwards, I can't recall) and that's the customisable Piano Roll tools, which was truly revolutionary and way better than what we have had since.

[57Gregy]

I started with Cakewalk's Music Creator 2003, then CWMC Pro 24 and my most-used DAW, Cakewalk's SONAR Home Studio 6 XL. They were all pretty similar, functionally.
When Music Creator 6 came out, Cakewalk gave me a copy (thanks, Cakewalk!), presumably so I would use it and comment about it in the MC forum, in which I was active. I couldn't get used to the new ways of doing things and never really utilized it to its full potential.
I've had CbB for several years, but am still using SHS 6 on my ancient computer, but am trying to digest as much info about it as I can here for that day...
 

[bitflipper]

1 hour ago, SuperFreq said:

So for me right now the biggest roadblock is my Windows 7 machine. 

Don't sweat it. Lots of folks here are on Win7. It's not an issue if the computer is dedicated to being a DAW, especially if it's normally offline.

Most, like me, landed on Win10 for reasons other than audio. Everybody hated Win8, and few are embracing Win11. But 10 is working great.

[AB99]

Yes  for Windows 10.  11 is a pain and unfortunately is on a couple of my laptops (not my Cakewalk desktop).  Even the menus in 11 are bad and a pain.

Anyway, I too was a big fan of 8.5.3 for the ergonomics, the look and the like.   But you can customize the latest Cakewalk by Bandlab - and even get use to it - and even love it!  It does not take as long as one would think.   I am not a keyboard shortcut person for some reason, but I have designed what I like for the quick icons - like putting cut paste into them.   And  I have changed the default color scheme.

[Lord Tim]

Look at all of us old-timers here! We'll be talking about knowing when an update is about to drop because our knee joints start aching, and how back in our day we walked through 10 miles of snow on the way to and from our computers just to record 1 track of MIDI (even more exceptional for me because I grew up in the desert - see what I have to go through?!).

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to eat my steamed prunes and change my absorbent undergarments. (When you play fast guitar at this age, it's always a risk ?)

[InstrEd]

3 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

I need to eat my steamed prunes

Is this a real thing. Never heard of Steamed Prunes.

[Lord Tim]

*shudder* I hope not!