Firewire, Thunderbolt & PCs

[sjoens]

Has anyone been successful using older Firewire interfaces with newer Windows 10 & 11 systems? How are you doing it, and is it worth the effort.

I've read where some have used Apple adapters to bring Firewire up to Thunderbolt. Does this work on PC's with Thunderbolt 4 ports or only on Macs?

I still have an old Windows XP system with firewire If I ever get the urge to go retro.

 

[FJ Lamela]

I have windows 10 the last version , and focusrite liquid saffire 56, no problems.

Firewire with legacy drivers.

 

[msmcleod]

I still use a Yamaha 01X / i88X and Behringer ADA8000 one of my Windows 10 rigs using mLAN over firewire. 

The legacy drivers worked fine on Windows 7, but not for Windows 10 - I'm using the standard Windows firewire drivers on Windows 10. Also, Windows 10 has to be run constantly in test mode, and driver signature had to be disabled during install.

The biggest issue I had was finding a compatible firewire card - the Belkin F5U502 using the TI chipset works best for me with mLAN on a desktop. 

I've yet to find a laptop firewire card that works at all, although I did have some success with the onboard Ricoh card in my Dell Vostro 1700. The onboard interface works 100% on Windows 7 32 bit, but I get a BSOD on shut down on Windows 10. 

The second biggest issue was the MIDI ports all coming back with the same name. It required manually changing the names in the registry.

In saying that, on my desktop it's now running like a dream on Windows 10. 

[sjoens]

So no hope for a firewire mixer to a new laptop with only usb and thunderbolt4 connection?

[msmcleod]

1 minute ago, sjoens said:

So no hope for a firewire mixer to a new laptop with only usb and thunderbolt4 connection?

I wouldn't say no hope, but it's likely to be significant effort, with a good chance of failure. 

For me, even with detailed instructions on how to get mLAN working on Windows 10, it took literally days to get it to work on a laptop.   In the end, I did get it working on Windows 10, but the BSOD on shutdown meant that every time I reboot into Windows 7, it does a chkdsk on all the drivers.

You also want to make sure you backup an image of your OS before you start anything, as things don't always uninstall properly and can invalidate a new install... so every time it doesn't work, it's a case of restoring your disk from your backup and starting again.

In the long run, it may be easier to just get a multi-track USB mixer - I've heard good things about the Soundcraft Signature 22 MTK, Tascam Model 12/16/24, and I think Zoom & Korg also do one.

[sjoens]

They all seem to have some tradeoff I can't live with. Thought the new Mackie Onyx12 would be the one but they disabled stereo line Gain on half the channels, which seriously hampers DAW input signal for some reason.  I currently use around 12 o'clk gain on line channels.

Featurewise the old Onyx 1220i would have been the ticket but it's FW only. Instead of R&Ding this new one, wish they'd just replaced the 1220i's firewire card with USB.

[msmcleod]

2 hours ago, sjoens said:

They all seem to have some tradeoff I can't live with. Thought the new Mackie Onyx12 would be the one but they disabled stereo line Gain on half the channels, which seriously hampers DAW input signal for some reason.  I currently use around 12 o'clk gain on line channels.

Featurewise the old Onyx 1220i would have been the ticket but it's FW only. Instead of R&Ding this new one, wish they'd just replaced the 1220i's firewire card with USB.

I do know what you mean.  I was seriously considering the Tascam Model 24 or Soundcraft 22 MTK, but both tap the signal to USB pre-EQ.  This is fine (probably preferable) for live, but it doesn't fit my workflow - I want to sculp sounds before I record them.

I ended up getting an Allen & Heath MixWizard WZ3 (£500 used), an RME DigiFace USB (£300) and 2 x Fostex VC8 ADAT converters (around £75 each used).  So around £950  ($1100 US)  altogether. The WZ3 allows you to configure whether the direct outs are pre-EQ or post-fader via jumpers, but mine was already configured post-fader.

The MixWizard WZ4 with the USB card would have been another way to go, but 1. it was 2 x more expensive; 2. I've no idea how good the ASIO drivers are, and 3. The USB card has now been discontinued.

The biggest advantage of my current setup is that it actually supports 32 channels I/O and it's all modular.  So I've also got my old Focusrite 18i20 as an additional 8 inputs, and a bunch of hardware pre's using up the final 8 channels through an additional VC8.

The VC8's are probably the weakest link in the chain, but I'm free to upgrade them if I need to.

[James Argo]

Your mileage may vary. I heard many FW devices had connection problem with certain FW chipset (like Via).

In my case, I have Xeon (MSI mobo), a gen5 i7 (Acer mobo), an i5 (Gigabyte mobo), and an old core 2 quad Gigabyte machines.

I also have Alesis firewire mixer and MAudio FW410 that worked differently on those different 4 PCs.

Win10, FW410 runs OK in all rig . while the Alesis only works on my xeon, i5 and core 2 quad machines. The Alesis, only works on the i7 rig in Win 7.

I think the best way to tell is to test them with your rig.

[sjoens]

Pre EQ signal is most common. My current mixer actually allows post fade EQ via switch on each channel as did the 1220i. But for me it's more about not having useful features hijacked or compromised in some way.

Curious... the only constant thruout the connection wars is ethernet (RJ45). Most newer systems still have them. Higher end audio uses them. Why not these prosumer units?

[Jeremy Oakes]

11 hours ago, msmcleod said:

In the long run, it may be easier to just get a multi-track USB mixer - I've heard good things about the Soundcraft Signature 22 MTK, Tascam Model 12/16/24, and I think Zoom & Korg also do one.

+1 for the MTK 22 - I use it for both live recordings and more currently I’m using it in the studio, both with CbB. Great pre-amps.

Rock solid drivers that withstood the W11 upgrade, as against Focurite (18i20) which didn’t.

J

[siordanescu]

Hi friends! I use three sound cards on firewire: M-AUDIO PROJECTMIX, T.C. ELECTRONIC KONNEKT 24 D and ALESIS IO 26. All with Windows 7 drivers but which also work perfectly on Windows 10. The laptop has an express card/34 DELOCK connection, with TI chipset. In perspective, because the laptop has a third-generation I7 processor, I am studying the problem of switching to a Thunderbolt connection to make the switch to firewire, namely... an adapter from Thunderbolt 4 to Thunderbolt 3/2 and from here a another adapter to firewire 400. What I don't know yet is whether the sound card drivers, which are on Windows 7, will also work on Windows 11...

[bitflipper]

   

On 11/19/2022 at 10:39 PM, sjoens said:

Has anyone been successful using older Firewire interfaces with newer Windows 10 & 11 systems?

I went Firewire in  2006, after having some issues with a USB audio interface. My desktop PC didn't have a FW port so I bought a generic $40 card. When I upgraded the computer, I moved that same FW card to the new machine. Then when that computer was stolen I bought the same FW card again for its replacement.

So I've been using the same cheap Firewire adaptor for 16 years now, with both Intel and AMD CPUs, four O/Ss (XP, Win 7, 8 and 10) and two audio interfaces (MOTU and Focusrite). Despite tempting fate with ample opportunities for the setup to fail, it hasn't.

[Craig Anderton]

I wonder if running a Firewire adapter with Thunderbolt would be the most foolproof option. Wouldn't that "divorce" the Firewire from the PCs innards?

I have no idea...just thinking out loud.

[tecknot]

Not sure if this is relevant, but I've been using a Focusrite Saffire firewire interface on Windows Pro 10 (1909) for years.  I am using two Thunderbolt adapters (one firewire to Thunderbolt 2 and the other is TB2 to TB4) on a laptop with Thunderbolt ports.  All is working fine and very reliable.

Not sure if it is worth it since I had to spend $100 for the two adapters, but for me it has been.

Kind regards,

tecknot

[sjoens]

Sounds relevant to me. Gives hope anyway.

4 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

I wonder if running a Firewire adapter with Thunderbolt would be the most foolproof option. Wouldn't that "divorce" the Firewire from the PCs innards?

I have no idea...just thinking out loud.

Thus the reason for this thread. Some like tecknot get them to work, but according to Studio1 Productions the drivers need to see a firewire chipset somewhere on your system. 

Also, it seems the way Windows XP, 7, 10 & 11 handle firewire are all different. I don't see a problem for my old XP tower. It has FW all over it, but it's 32 bit and can't run CbB. My Win10 & 11 laptops have Thunderbolt so curious about the adapter route. Like all things PC, YMMV. 

[Starship Krupa]

I've been Firewire-on-Windows (7 and then 10) for many years.

Was running a pair of Presonus Firepod/FP10's using Presonus' Windows 7 driver (installed in compatibility mode) with a PCI Via chipset FW adapter.

Upgraded to a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, using Focusrite's Windows 10 driver, using a Star-Tech PCIe card with a TI chipset.

The reason for the TI chipset being a preference is that most of the interface manufacturers used TI chipsets in the interfaces, so naturally they play better together. I never had trouble with the FP10's when I tried using a Via card, but with the Focusrite, it seems to have less trouble with the initial sync with the TI card.

Some have better luck using the Microsoft "Legacy" Firewire driver. It doesn't seem to make a difference for me, so I just use TI's driver.

I retain a cantankerous preference for Firewire over USB 2 because Firewire was designed to facilitate 2-way communication. Trying LatencyMon on both technologies showed me that my USB driver is much busier than the Firewire driver once I started streaming audio. There may not be a practical difference past a certain computer hardware spec (my old Dell laptop's performance suffers when using my USB interface), but you can get some excellent Firewire interfaces for cheap due to their "obsolescence."

[sjoens]

And some of them are better featured than the newest and sometimes overpriced offerings.

I still have issues with USB. I've read some on mLAN and ethernet but know little about them.

[Bill Phillips]

Is this article any help?

I had my firewire stuff working fine maybe 6 months ago then it stopped. I haven't gotten back around to troubleshooting it, but the last time I did I think the article at the link above was useful. Also, I remember some guidance on a blog from a musician that worked for Microsoft being useful, but I can't find that.

I have a SYBA SY-PEX30016 firewire card. Unlike @bitflipper I've gone through a number of firewire cards, but sounds like that may have been a waste of money.

[msmcleod]

To be honest, I've had much better performance with USB 2 than with Firewire.  I was hoping to have an mLAN system with 01X , 2 x i88x and 1 x ADA8000 to give me 32 tracks, but it gives up at 26 tracks.

My RME Digiface USB however, quite happily copes with recording 32 tracks, whilst simultaneously playing back on all 34 outputs - and that's with an ASIO buffer half the size of what my mLAN system is (64 vs 128).

Other things to bear in mind...
1. Firewire is a deprecated technology - certainly mLAN is completely discontinued.  The chances of it working in future Windows updates/upgrades is diminishing.
2. The quality of converters in newer gear is far better than the ones used in older interfaces. The mic inputs on my i88x for example, are the same as the Yamaha DM2000, which was their top-end digital mixer at the time, but my Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 sounds so much better.  Not to say they aren't good - they certainly are - but more modern converters are likely better.

[sjoens]

7 hours ago, Bill Phillips said:

Is this article any help?

Yes. I've already linked to it above. 

6 hours ago, msmcleod said:

1. Firewire is a deprecated technology

What about LAN ethernet RJ45?