cakewalk Slow performance when playing video

[Malinois]

Let me tell you about the performance of the PC

CPU : Amd Ryzen 7 3700X 8Core Processor
RAM : 64GB
SSD : M.2 Seagate FireCuda 520 SSD ZP200GM30002
GPU : Nvida Gforce RTX 3060

It's set like this, but strangely, when you play a video on a cakewalk, the frame slows down.
My audio driver is WASAPI Shared and I also use a virtual instrument, and it doesn't matter when I'm working on other things, but as mentioned above, using video tracks causes frame drops.

Tell me why

[GTsongwriter]

Have you tried ASIO compatible hardware?

 

 

[Malinois]

On 10/11/2022 at 7:36 PM, El Diablo said:

Have you tried ASIO compatible hardware?

 

 

No i don't have a audio card and audio Mixer
And as far as I know, asioall4 is not perfect, so it's better not to do it

[Malinois]

On 10/11/2022 at 6:01 PM, Lord Tim said:

We can't tell you why because we don't know anything about the video itself.

Grab Media Info and paste us the specs in the Tree view of the video file. it might be that this particular video has too high a bitrate, too high frame rate, a poorly supported CODEC... could be anything, but it's easier if we're not guessing.

Thanks bro

[Mark Mitchell]

I came to the discussion board with a very similar question.

There is a video that you receive from ThinkSpace for an interest in writing to film.

I attended their OpenDay sessions on 10/08/2022 - so they sent me an invite to ask for that.

My prior experience with working with video was that I had to set the audio to 48000 so that it would be in sync while recording.

My first attempts were out of sync immediately - I checked the video and it said that its audio was at 44100 (CD)

So - I reimported the video at that rate - but my attempts are still out of sync.

I set the project to count in 2 measures before recording as well. It is still way out of sync.

During that OpenDay event they recommended several DAWs - but Cakewalk was not one of them  - which has been my DAW for decades.

I asked about Cakewalk - and they replied that it was not robust enough - to do video - so these sync issues are making me wonder if they are correct

Their site has an entry on what DAWs to use

Guy Michelmore - Thinkspace CEO -  Reviews peoples submissions on this video  which if you click to read more about the entry - will have a link to get the video from

So this makes me feel I am at a crossroads - a simple video should be able to sync with a two measure lead time

If I cannot figure this out - then I probably have to think of going to Cubase - based on that OpenDay discussion.

I want to solve the Sync Issue and stay with Cakewalk and have them include it in the DAWS that can do video - so any help would be appreciated.

The suggestion in this conversation stated to use Media File - I downloaded that - and got the information  below:

General
Complete name                            : D:\CueTubeDownloads\How_to_write_film_music_PDF_Film\How_to_write_film_music_PDF_Film\Viking Scoring Video TC.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                                 : mp42 (mp42)
File size                                : 34.8 MiB
Duration                                 : 1 min 22 s
Overall bit rate                         : 3 547 kb/s
Codirector                               : codirector
Production studio                        : studio
ContentType                              : Unknown Type
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-07-14 08:48:02
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-07-14 08:48:02

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Main@L4.1
Format settings                          : CABAC / 1 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP                     : M=1, N=25
Muxing mode                              : Container profile=Baseline@4.1
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 1 min 22 s
Bit rate                                 : 3 539 kb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.068
Stream size                              : 34.7 MiB (100%)
Language                                 : English
Codec configuration box                  : avcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                                 : mp4a-40-2
Duration                                 : 1 min 22 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 3 102 b/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 44.1 kHz
Frame rate                               : 43.066 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 31.1 KiB (0%)
Title                                    : Stereo
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Alternate group                          : 1

[Byron Dickens]

8 hours ago, Malinois said:

No i don't have a audio card and audio Mixer
And as far as I know, asioall4 is not perfect, so it's better not to do it

ASIO4ALL is not a real ASIO driver!

[GTsongwriter]

8 hours ago, Malinois said:

No i don't have a audio card and audio Mixer
And as far as I know, asioall4 is not perfect, so it's better not to do it

Your specs are much better than mine, except your not running a Intel chip.  Cakewalk is pretty picky in that matter.  15 years ago, I emailed support, they recommended I buy a Intel chip based computer because I had a AMD and was trying to run Cakewalk for which I was having issues running Cakewalk.  I bought a Intel based computer with an Intel processor which solved my issues.

 

The other issue I've had in the past was trying to use on board WASAPI drivers.  Those drivers would constantly lag pretty horribly.  So, I bought a 1010LT Delta and that fixed the issue.  Right now, I have a Focusrite Scarlett Solo 3rd Gen.  You can check my specs, software, hardware in my profile.

 

Finally, I totally agree that Cakewalk sucks at video play back.

 

[GTsongwriter]

24 minutes ago, pwalpwal said:

is that really a thing?

After that fixed my issue, I did some research. It appears that AMD chips are awesome for gaming, but for creating music and videos Intel has specific instructions baked into their chips that give them a upper edge when performance is needed for specific tasks dealing with music and video creation.

It's been 15 years since, so I'm not sure if that's still the case?  Does Intel still have the upper hand for creation of music and video?  I didn't take any chances and kept buying Intel after it solved my issues.

 

The way I see it... If you have the fastest guy in the world talking, yet you take a few key words out of his vocabulary.  You might be able to understand him, but not as clearly as you would someone with a full vocabulary talking normal.  AMD chips maybe still be missing those few key words, but doesn't affect games like it does music/video creation.  Playing back music/video uses different instructions compared to encoding music/video.

Edited October 13, 2022 by El Diablo

[GTsongwriter]

53 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

 

I accidentally pressed quote and now I can't delete the quote.  Mobile Chrome sucks.

 

Anyhow, here's a good read https://devblogs.microsoft.com/windows-music-dev/unofficial-windows-10-audio-workstation-build-and-tweak-guide-part-1/

"The majority of your performance is going to come from picking a good audio interface with good ASIO drivers." From the above guide.

Edited October 13, 2022 by El Diablo

[Mark Mitchell]

7 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

Those specs look pretty standard and this should be fine to play in Cakewalk. I just signed up then to grab the video just then so I'll give it a quick test.

Guy is pretty cool, I like his stuff. He's right to a point - Cakewalk's video features are rudimentary, but I haven't found any sync issues with an AVC MP4 yet, unless it's some crazy file resolution or bitrate, which this doesn't appear to be.

So, importing it in to CbB at default settings (which for me is 44.1 rather than 48), the video plays fine and smoothly.

What exactly do you mean by out of sync? I just did a quick score over the top and everything seemed to line up OK on every play for me.

OK - end of workday and now can look at the posts

I imported the file originally at 48 - video playback - no issue - same if imported at 44.1

It is when I am recording a sound track to it - with a two measure lead in - the video display is stuttering during the lead in two measures.

I had setup Markers using SMPTE Locks to the video.   I added the two measure lead in - after that.

My Audio is a MOTU Ultralite MK5 - using the ASIO driver.  (I just checked for driver updates on that - and there is an update (just applied) if that fixes it - great but I do not think that is it)

One video I watched -  for a Cubase demo - moved the video over 2 bars - that would seem to be ignoring the SMPTE idea -  that should still have a standard starting point and markers set to STMPE - should allow for that. 

I set the tempo of my metronome at 68 - and waited the two bars to start recording -  and if I am seeing the video in real time - with alignment to SMPTE - I should be able to cover the first segment of the short video -with a track of music - but it is not doing that.

 

[Starship Krupa]

6 hours ago, Mark Mitchell said:

I had setup Markers using SMPTE Locks to the video.

You can add me to the chorus of "I tried it and it works over here." However, the above statement jumps out at me. I haven't done any video for broadcast, never messed with SMPTE. Can you fill me in on the purpose of this? Does the client/instructor require a SMPTE marker at the start and end? Did you fiddle with the clock source settings? I've never chosen any clock source other than "internal" or "audio," but I can see where it might make a difference. I don't have much time to dive more deeply, but it might be helpful for all involved if you posted your version of this:

Seems like there are multiple things in there that could result in what you're seeing if they were set a certain way. The documentation says that SMPTE/MTC sync is for when you have an external device generating either SMPTE or MIDI time code. Which clock source are you using? Also note the timecode format. As you can see, mine defaults to 30 FPS non-drop, while my video is, like yours, recorded at 29.97 FPS. The Cakewalk documentation says this about that:

• "29.97 FPS Non Drop-NTSC non-broadcast and short length video in North America and Japan. Used for some music projects. This setting synchronizes the video perfectly with Cakewalk, but the sequencer position displayed in the Now Time and Big Time displays will gradually drift and become incorrect over long periods of time. The audio and MIDI synchronization to the external device will not be affected by this discrepancy.
• "30 FPS Non Drop-Most music projects and some film in North America. This is the best choice for any music project and should be used unless the situation dictates otherwise."

In oft-too-typical fashion, the documentation doesn't specify which music projects want which, just "some" and "most."

Now, for the sake of confusion, because @Mark Mitchell posted in this thread instead of starting his own topic, we are dealing with two different users with two different computer systems and two different issues.

@Malinois is running an onboard CODEC with WASAPI Shared and is having draggy video. First thing he needs to do is switch to WASAPI Exclusive and try it again.

Mark Mitchell is having a different problem, he's running a MOTU interface with ASIO and his recorded audio cues aren't lining up properly with the video

And fellow old dudes, you know I love ya, but as regards hating on onboard CODEC's please lighten up on that particular finger point. While, yes, it's best practice to use a good interface with an ASIO driver when recording, the facts of today are that way more people than in the past are using notebook computers to compose, mix and edit, using the headphone jack to monitor.

You want to swear that Cakewalk doesn't play as well with onboard hardware CODEC's? Fine, but if that's actually the case in 2022, then Cakewalk sucks. What kind of hardware do you think schools use? Do their computer labs have Scarlett interfaces plugged into every computer? (my guess: probably not). What kind of computers do you think that 99% of college students living in their residential housing use? (my guess: laptops) How will someone who is completely new to DAW's initially try out different ones? (my guess is that most of the time, they'll just plug into the computer's headphone jack) Can Cakewalk afford to suck in those scenarios?

BandLab's main page for Cakewalk by BandLab shows 3 computers running Cakewalk, two of them portables, no external interfaces in sight. Noel Borthwick, the man himself, tests Cakewalk's performance on a system using only the onboard sound chip. But if you want to create and reinforce a reputation for Cakewalk not playing well when using the onboard CODEC to monitor, keep it up. The word will get around eventually. All it takes is one snotloaf to quote a forum post out of context on Reddit for it to become an "issue to consider" when choosing a DAW (which I'll probably have to go on there and debunk once a week).

In this day and age, it can't be a given that using onboard audio is going to cause problems with Cakewalk. If there are cases where it does, the developers need to know right away. What make and model of computer, what hardware CODEC, etc. It has to work well. I don't care how many systems worked better in 2000 once they put an Audigy or Echo card in. That's old information. WASAPI has been around for 15 years, longer than some Cakewalk users have been alive. Does the anecdotal information you're going by date back that far? I've had to adjust mine a few times over the years. Brands of video cards, brands of CPU, laptops vs. desktops, etc.

From what I've observed across multiple systems in the many years I've been building them and using them is that onboard chips work just fine with Windows in WASAPI Exclusive. The playback is pretty much as smooth as using an ASIO-equipped external interface. On one of my systems, onboard chip with WASAPI Exclusive playback performs better than with my brand new Presonus USB Studio 2|4. I figured out why, too (using Resource Monitor and LatencyMon): the USB host can't keep us as well as the onboard chip's more direct connection to the rest of the chipset. For sure, it doesn't sound as good, due to better jitter control and supporting analog circuitry in the Studio 2|4, but it's easier on the audio engine. Believe it or don't. 

The USB driver goes nuts according to LatencyMon when using the external interface with its ASIO driver, and everything quiets right down when using the onboard sound. Which makes sense to me.

Fortunately, with my ancient Dell Latitude E6410 (mfr date 2011), playback with the onboard sound chip works great (in WASAPI Exclusive, somewhat less so in Shared). When I want the best listening experience I plug in the Presonus, but it just doesn't work as well when mixing and editing. I get pops and clicks no matter how high I crank the buffers.

Think about gaming, where you typically use onboard Realtek CODEC's. All the horsepower they use for audio and video processing, 60 frames per second of texture-mapped 3-D in real time, with whatever binaural or Dolby or whatnot fancy spatial audio processing in a situation where frame rate is paramount, and you can't have any bottlenecks. As we know, it's gaming that drives the development of cutting edge PC hardware. They're not going to put a bottleneck into those systems in the audio CODEC. Although there is a small market for internal PCIe sound cards for gamers, I've never seen a gaming enthusiast/system tuner say anything about Realtek's CODEC's being a possible drag on frame rates or overall performance. The usual word is that theoretically, a sound card can offload tasks from the CPU, but then the CPU has to manage the extra USB chatter so it's kind of a wash.

Is it really too much to ask of Cakewalk to play back a video and an audio track and record at the same time on similar hardware without glitching or lagging or things getting out of sync? But it might work if I buy a nice audio interface? Please tell me, because if I can't expect to be able to mix and edit on my laptop without lugging an external interface around, I'm ultimately going to have to find a more capable DAW because I want to be able to go mobile in times when I don't have access to my studio system. If I shouldn't even bother trying to use onboard sound with Cakewalk, well then, shoot, I won't.

[Mark Mitchell]

@Starship Krupa  

I do think that the timing is related to the source - and my wanting to have those 2 bars lead in  is ignoring that Cakewalk is still starting the video timing and there is not a negative number in SMPTE - my timing source is Audio - I will try using internal. 

Apologies for not starting my own topic - it just seemed to be very related.

During the night the feeling  was settling in on me that I will probably have to move to Cubase - as that is the Windows tool relied on by a good number of respected composers for film are using.  Logic has been a Mac only tool for many years - they ended the Windows version when Apple bought Logic.

I will probably wait until they have some sort of "Black Friday" sale on the Steinberg products - Cubase and Dorico, and save my money up for them.

[Will.]

3 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

You can add me to the chorus of "I tried it and it works over here." However, the above statement jumps out at me. I haven't done any video for broadcast, never messed with SMPTE. Can you fill me in on the purpose of this? Does the client/instructor require a SMPTE marker at the start and end? Did you fiddle with the clock source settings? I've never chosen any clock source other than "internal" or "audio," but I can see where it might make a difference. I don't have much time to dive more deeply, but it might be helpful for all involved if you posted your version of this:

Seems like there are multiple things in there that could result in what you're seeing if they were set a certain way. The documentation says that SMPTE/MTC sync is for when you have an external device generating either SMPTE or MIDI time code. Which clock source are you using? Also note the timecode format. As you can see, mine defaults to 30 FPS non-drop, while my video is, like yours, recorded at 29.97 FPS. The Cakewalk documentation says this about that:

• "29.97 FPS Non Drop-NTSC non-broadcast and short length video in North America and Japan. Used for some music projects. This setting synchronizes the video perfectly with Cakewalk, but the sequencer position displayed in the Now Time and Big Time displays will gradually drift and become incorrect over long periods of time. The audio and MIDI synchronization to the external device will not be affected by this discrepancy.
• "30 FPS Non Drop-Most music projects and some film in North America. This is the best choice for any music project and should be used unless the situation dictates otherwise."

In oft-too-typical fashion, the documentation doesn't specify which music projects want which, just "some" and "most."

Now, for the sake of confusion, because @Mark Mitchell posted in this thread instead of starting his own topic, we are dealing with two different users with two different computer systems and two different issues.

@Malinois is running an onboard CODEC with WASAPI Shared and is having draggy video. First thing he needs to do is switch to WASAPI Exclusive and try it again.

Mark Mitchell is having a different problem, he's running a MOTU interface with ASIO and his recorded audio cues aren't lining up properly with the video

And fellow old dudes, you know I love ya, but as regards hating on onboard CODEC's please lighten up on that particular finger point. While, yes, it's best practice to use a good interface with an ASIO driver when recording, the facts of today are that way more people than in the past are using notebook computers to compose, mix and edit, using the headphone jack to monitor.

You want to swear that Cakewalk doesn't play as well with onboard hardware CODEC's? Fine, but if that's actually the case in 2022, then Cakewalk sucks. What kind of hardware do you think schools use? Do their computer labs have Scarlett interfaces plugged into every computer? (my guess: probably not). What kind of computers do you think that 99% of college students living in their residential housing use? (my guess: laptops) How will someone who is completely new to DAW's initially try out different ones? (my guess is that most of the time, they'll just plug into the computer's headphone jack) Can Cakewalk afford to suck in those scenarios?

BandLab's main page for Cakewalk by BandLab shows 3 computers running Cakewalk, two of them portables, no external interfaces in sight. Noel Borthwick, the man himself, tests Cakewalk's performance on a system using only the onboard sound chip. But if you want to create and reinforce a reputation for Cakewalk not playing well when using the onboard CODEC to monitor, keep it up. The word will get around eventually. All it takes is one snotloaf to quote a forum post out of context on Reddit for it to become an "issue to consider" when choosing a DAW (which I'll probably have to go on there and debunk once a week).

In this day and age, it can't be a given that using onboard audio is going to cause problems with Cakewalk. If there are cases where it does, the developers need to know right away. What make and model of computer, what hardware CODEC, etc. It has to work well. I don't care how many systems worked better in 2000 once they put an Audigy or Echo card in. That's old information. WASAPI has been around for 15 years, longer than some Cakewalk users have been alive. Does the anecdotal information you're going by date back that far? I've had to adjust mine a few times over the years. Brands of video cards, brands of CPU, laptops vs. desktops, etc.

From what I've observed across multiple systems in the many years I've been building them and using them is that onboard chips work just fine with Windows in WASAPI Exclusive. The playback is pretty much as smooth as using an ASIO-equipped external interface. On one of my systems, onboard chip with WASAPI Exclusive playback performs better than with my brand new Presonus USB Studio 2|4. I figured out why, too (using Resource Monitor and LatencyMon): the USB host can't keep us as well as the onboard chip's more direct connection to the rest of the chipset. For sure, it doesn't sound as good, due to better jitter control and supporting analog circuitry in the Studio 2|4, but it's easier on the audio engine. Believe it or don't. 

The USB driver goes nuts according to LatencyMon when using the external interface with its ASIO driver, and everything quiets right down when using the onboard sound. Which makes sense to me.

Fortunately, with my ancient Dell Latitude E6410 (mfr date 2011), playback with the onboard sound chip works great (in WASAPI Exclusive, somewhat less so in Shared). When I want the best listening experience I plug in the Presonus, but it just doesn't work as well when mixing and editing. I get pops and clicks no matter how high I crank the buffers.

Think about gaming, where you typically use onboard Realtek CODEC's. All the horsepower they use for audio and video processing, 60 frames per second of texture-mapped 3-D in real time, with whatever binaural or Dolby or whatnot fancy spatial audio processing in a situation where frame rate is paramount, and you can't have any bottlenecks. As we know, it's gaming that drives the development of cutting edge PC hardware. They're not going to put a bottleneck into those systems in the audio CODEC. Although there is a small market for internal PCIe sound cards for gamers, I've never seen a gaming enthusiast/system tuner say anything about Realtek's CODEC's being a possible drag on frame rates or overall performance. The usual word is that theoretically, a sound card can offload tasks from the CPU, but then the CPU has to manage the extra USB chatter so it's kind of a wash.

Is it really too much to ask of Cakewalk to play back a video and an audio track and record at the same time on similar hardware without glitching or lagging or things getting out of sync? But it might work if I buy a nice audio interface? Please tell me, because if I can't expect to be able to mix and edit on my laptop without lugging an external interface around, I'm ultimately going to have to find a more capable DAW because I want to be able to go mobile in times when I don't have access to my studio system. If I shouldn't even bother trying to use onboard sound with Cakewalk, well then, shoot, I won't.

Well said. I know this comes from a place without trying to start a debate on this. Just to add to this without starting any form of debate as well: If Asio4All is just a wrapper of WASAPI, what makes it any less useful to use? Anyway . . . 

I also always think about these when this topic comes up . . . It's what's being used with laptops all over

 

 

 

 

 

Why would companies go through all the troubles to create these if today's onboard soundcards were not decent enough. There are literally studios that runs all their equipment with this little setup. 

There are well-known artists that made hits songs with just an onboard soundcard, which also won them an award. In fact, most hit songs today, are made in a bedroom and on a laptop. 

I'm probably going to be angry 10 years from now sitting with my handful of equipment and the two I'm yet to buy very soon. Until then . . . analog world it is for me though. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Will.

[Will.]

Perhaps the OP needs to check the project tempo as well to bring this to speed with the fps. 

[scook]

7 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

That's the big limitation of the Microsoft library used in the default video engine in Cakewalk.

fixed

[Xoo]

 

2 hours ago, scook said:

9 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

That's the big limitation of the Microsoft library used in the default video engine in Cakewalk.

fixed

That's the big limitation of the Microsoft library Cakewalk decided to use as the default video engine when no-one else does...

[Starship Krupa]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:24 AM, Mark Mitchell said:

Apologies for not starting my own topic - it just seemed to be very related.

No worries. I meant to point it out for clarification sake, not shame you.?

On 10/14/2022 at 3:24 AM, Mark Mitchell said:

During the night the feeling  was settling in on me that I will probably have to move to Cubase - as that is the Windows tool relied on by a good number of respected composers for film are using. 

Much as I dig Cakewalk, there is something to be said for using the software that is standard in your industry. It makes it easier to find advice, and the manufacturer will have more invested in your specific application of the program. And from what I've learned by participating over at Vi-Control (if you don't know about that forum, I recommend it for someone learning scoring) Cubase (and Pro Tools) rule the scoring world. And Steinberg have dropped that nasty dongle activation thing.

That said, if you find that certain operations have you longing for Cakewalk, you can probably switch back to it for some phases, such as mixing (at this point, I would hate to be without Cakewalk's Console).

My video workflow is that I finish the audio in Cakewalk, then import it to Vegas Pro to do video editing, then render the finished video from Vegas. But since I'm making YouTube videos for my songs, I'm cutting the video to the audio rather than the other way around.