Does Cakewalk support CLAP?

[tulamide]

Cakewalk, as a free DAW, should support at least one free plugin format. Therefore I would love to see support for CLAP in Cakewalk.

[user 905133]

"GPTChat, Please recode all my DX, VST and VST3 music plug-ins as CLAP plug-ins."

[user 905133]

7 hours ago, tulamide said:

Cakewalk, as a free DAW, should support at least one free plugin format. 

Sorry.  While it might be nice for you and other fans of CLAP to have, your assertion (Cakewalk by Bandlab should implement support for CLAP because CLAP is a free plugin format and Bandlab doesn't charge money for people to use Cakewalk) is a non sequitur. 

[Lord Tim]

And even though VST is a proprietary format, there are THOUSANDS of free VSTs available, which pairs nicely with free software.  

Some great examples here:

 

And here:

 

[Brian Walton]

Don't care about CLAP.  The OP mentions one plugin (a synth in a world of too many synths including free ones) that is only available in CLAP.  I'd tend to think the route to go is ask developers to use VST3.  As far as I understand there is no licensing cost and therefore there isn't a major barrier to making it free.

I respect that a plugin maker can make it in a proprietary format...just like some only make AU.  But it tends to feel like either an experiment or a niche product if you don't use the biggest standard in the industry.  

A day might arrive when CLAP makes sense, but as of now, I'm not seeing a reason for the adoption across DAWs such as Cakewalk (i.e. taking resources away from other development).   There are not enough products out there (free or paid) to justify it from what I've seen.

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

It's also important to note that it took ages for people to standardize on VST3 and that's just a version increase of an industry standard! The same went for ProTools and its RTAS/TDM to AAX.

[azslow3]

5 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

It's also important to note that it took ages for people to standardize on VST3 and that's just a version increase of an industry standard!

Have you ever thought why it takew so long? And why Steinberg had to force use it after 2018? Why there are several formats at first place?

Also ProTools is an "industry standard".  Why you try to use something else, like Cakewalk? ?

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

8 hours ago, azslow3 said:

Also ProTools is an "industry standard".  Why you try to use something else, like Cakewalk?

Because it requires iLok to be used and the whole workflow made to be used with external gear and tape machines don't work well with my fully in the box setup. Plus the way they handle audio drivers and the documentation is crap.

EDIT - Although....I am tempted after looking at what Intro has added.  More plugins like the Lite version of Eleven and their Sansamp PSA-1 emulation. Sure, you lost UVI Falcon (which came with First), but still. And you can run your own AAX plugins as well.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Bruno de Souza Lino

[tulamide]

I wonder, where all this fear of another plugin format comes from? It's not as if it would hurt you in any way. It's just a plugin format. And about the effort needed: Reaper needed a few weeks to implement CLAP support. Fact is, that Steinberg currently dictates, what a plugin can or cannot do. That's why developers started other plugin formats in the first place. CLAP and LV2, for example, have the same basic concept. Allowing a modular approach to extend capabilities with extensions. No DAW is required to support any of those. It's a bonus, not a necessity.
But by being afraid of a format, that developers of instuments and effects designed to specifically allow more functionality, less CPU usage and a leaner programming, you actually prohibit those who want to give you these better products. The more DAWs support CLAP, the more CLAP plugins you will get. Of course, the whole U-He package and dozens of smaller developers already offer really good plugins in CLAP format and some even CLAP only.
So you don't want variety, just because of a diffuse fear of a plugin format. That's strange.

[Glenn Stanton]

1 hour ago, tulamide said:

I wonder, where all this fear of another plugin format comes from? It's not as if it would hurt you in any way. It's just a plugin format. 

a version 1.0 is usually the reason people are reluctant to completely create a new line of plugins based around it.  since it does a number of things (all of which i think are desirable) many plugin companies and developers may not have the drivers to leverage all the capabilities (thus the comment about "new"). multi-threaded. MIDI 2.0, etc all good things really.

and did i mention it's a version 1.0 ? i don't think it's "fear", just a matter of prioritising the development, integration, and support versus other things people are asking for.

[Lord Tim]

Yeah, what Glenn said. I don't think anyone is opposed to it being added, but at the moment it could easily be another failed competing standard (DXi anyone?). Have a look at how many vendors are doing CLAP - not a real lot. Would you pour your limited dev team resources into working all of the bugs out of something that may not take off and has a small userbase, or actually improving the core app that would benefit a great deal more of the userbase?

I have no doubt we'll see it if it's more widely adopted though.

[user 905133]

I wrote this up yesterday but didn't post it.  

Quote

To be clear. I am not anti-CLAP.  In fact if the team were to announce that they have secretly been working on reinventing all the legacy plug-ins as CLAP plug-ins as well as making needed improvements based in part on CLAP, I wouldn't mind that.  But I agree, if CLAPifying Cakewalk is not part of what they have been working on, I don't see a compelling need to drop everything and move CLAP to the top of the must-do list. 

However, in addition to non sequiturs (in the guise of logic)

On 4/20/2023 at 9:12 AM, User 905133 said:

Sorry.  While it might be nice for you and other fans of CLAP to have, your assertion (Cakewalk by Bandlab should implement support for CLAP because CLAP is a free plugin format and Bandlab doesn't charge money for people to use Cakewalk) is a non sequitur. 

you also seem prone to misinterpretation: 

2 hours ago, tulamide said:

I wonder, where all this fear of another plugin format comes from? 

But by being afraid of a format . . . . [emphasis added]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my first reply was not made out of "fear of another plugin format."  Neither is this reply. I just re-read the other posts and I don't read such fear into any of them.

That being said, I do have a strong distaste for people who use emotionally charged language and spurious reasoning to try to rile up others for the purpose of making cases for their own personal preferences. You have done that (1) with your non-sequitur and (2) by attributing responses to fear.

In my opinion, it is OK to have personal preferences (such as choosing to use or to not use CLAP or even to express hope that the developers will consider supporting CLAP in the future if they haven't done so already), to express that those are personal preferences, and even to inform others of reasons for making a personal choice.

I also think its OK for people to state why they find no personal need for something you want and even to suggest other options.

On 4/20/2023 at 1:12 AM, tulamide said:

Cakewalk, as a free DAW, should support at least one free plugin format. 

Because Cakewalk is free and because you personally want to use CLAP, you seem to believe the Cakewalk team should immediately drop everything to implement support for CLAP. That is what you are really saying. To advance that position, you use a non-sequitur and claim people who responded to you are afraid of the existence of CLAP as  a plug-in format.

2 hours ago, tulamide said:

But by being afraid of a format, that developers of instuments and effects designed to specifically allow more functionality, less CPU usage and a leaner programming, you actually prohibit those who want to give you these better products.

Here, you seem to be using the veneer of logical argumentation.  However, you are the one who is afraid that you might not get what you want. By overlaying fear on the people who replied to you, you actually risk alienating people who might otherwise be open to using CLAP plug-ins in the future.

2 hours ago, tulamide said:

The more DAWs support CLAP, the more CLAP plugins you will get. Of course, the whole U-He package and dozens of smaller developers already offer really good plugins in CLAP format and some even CLAP only.
So you don't want variety, just because of a diffuse fear of a plugin format. That's strange.

Again, I don't see any replies that state or imply that people don't want variety.  I can understand that you and others want the CLAP format to succeed. However, I think your approach as an advocate for CLAP is inappropriate and runs the risk of backfiring.

Years ago, I was looking forward to a day when there would be a better alternative to Virtual Steinberg Technology (yes, I know the S is supposed to be for Studio).  However, it seems that fans of the CLAP format have been going out of their way to be aggressively obnoxious.

I cannot imagine the Cakewalk team not being aware of the format, and I trust that if they feel it is in the interest of their users and can easily be successfully implemented within Cakewalk in some way, they will. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by User 905133
fixed typos

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

2 hours ago, tulamide said:

I wonder, where all this fear of another plugin format comes from? It's not as if it would hurt you in any way. It's just a plugin format.

Despite what it may look like by looking around, a good portion of people that work in the audio industry are not technical people. They just want something that works and is stable. You might still find people running old pre-HD version of Pro Tools on ancient PCs and Macs because it works for them and they don't feel the need to change to new and shiny hardware and software. CLAP at the moment promises a lot, but it doesn't promise backwards compatibility and that will turn most heads away from it.

2 hours ago, tulamide said:

And about the effort needed: Reaper needed a few weeks to implement CLAP support

REAPER is developed by two people which do essentially updates when they feel like it and when they deem necessary, as opposed to a team of people with several hundreds of people that came from older versions of the software breathing down their necks when new features are implemented whilst old bugs still exist.

2 hours ago, tulamide said:

Fact is, that Steinberg currently dictates, what a plugin can or cannot do.

Apple also dictates what AU plugins and cannot do and I'm yet to see people complaining about it. Same goes for ProTools and AAX.

2 hours ago, tulamide said:

CLAP and LV2, for example, have the same basic concept. Allowing a modular approach to extend capabilities with extensions. No DAW is required to support any of those. It's a bonus, not a necessity.

I would be very careful when citing Linux plugin formats as examples. The Linux version of REAPER doesn't support LADSPA, DSSI or LV2 along with Tracktion Waveform and there's a very good reason for that. Linux people love the reinvent the square wheel. Many of those plugin formats don't play well with each other and can cause instability. Then you'll also run at people constantly nagging for their favorite plugin to be made in another format because of some arbitrary reason, which is why the few companies which make plugins for Linux (like u-he) only offer VST3 and nothing else.

3 hours ago, tulamide said:

But by being afraid of a format, that developers of instuments and effects designed to specifically allow more functionality, less CPU usage and a leaner programming, you actually prohibit those who want to give you these better products.

Those are promises that, in the modern world of software development, are usually lies. If you consider that one of the bullet points for CLAP is supporting modern hardware, there's no guarantee you'll get the same backwards compatibility other formats have. Remember that audio people prefer stability over new features and the whole programming mindset of solving performance problems by upgrading your hardware is not a thing.

3 hours ago, tulamide said:

the whole U-He package and dozens of smaller developers already offer really good plugins in CLAP format and some even CLAP only.

If by dozens you mean five, than yes.

Despite the whole pessimism this reply might display, more plugin formats would help in a sense, but I wouldn't be holding my breath for any of the companies u-he said are looking into CLAP. That's probably a PR reaction and I don't see how a company like Avid would change to an open plugin format after spending who knows how much money creating AAX, for example.

[tulamide]

Interesting answers to my post. I summarize:
"I have no fear, I just don't want it."

I still fail to see any sense in posts that try to explain why it is good, or even better, that Cakewalk does NOT support anything else than VST.

There's also little understanding of the CLAP format in some replies. CLAP allows any plugin to adapt to hardware and scale with it, unlike VST. That's just one example, of course. In VST, the hardware must support a specific standard. If it's there, the plugin runs, if it's missing, it doesn't. And that's it. If the hardware has more potent features, it is just ignored. CLAP otoh uses more potent features when present. The result is less CPU load, more stability, and a plugin that grows with your hardware. Win-Win.

It's things like these that make CLAP a much more interesting format than VST.

And once again: Nobody takes your VST plugins away. CLAP plugins just come in addition.

And in regards to the Cakewalk devs. Yes, I'm sure they know about CLAP. That doesn't take away that we can express our wish to support it. Just like you suggest features, I suggest CLAP support.

[tulamide]

1 hour ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

If by dozens you mean five, than yes.

Last time I counted, it were 14 that are known. Plus those who currently develop without having announced anything yet. There's a list somewhere on the web, you can read through. So, by dozens, I mean dozens.

[user 905133]

@tulamide I totally get that you want to be a fierce advocate for the CLAP format.  I think you made your point very clear:  You feel very strongly that the Cakewalk developers should add support for CLAP.   

[azslow3]

On 4/21/2023 at 8:01 PM, Lord Tim said:

... but at the moment it could easily be another failed competing standard (DXi anyone?)...

I guess you have never tried to write DXi of DX MFX... Especially with the second one, it is absolutely clear "that can't work well..." right at the first try ?

On 4/21/2023 at 9:17 PM, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

...

REAPER is developed by two people which do essentially updates when they feel like it and when they deem necessary, as opposed to a team of people with several hundreds of people

...

Apple also dictates what AU plugins and cannot do and I'm yet to see people complaining about it. Same goes for ProTools and AAX.

,,,

The Linux version of REAPER doesn't support LADSPA, DSSI or LV2 along with Tracktion Waveform and there's a very good reason for that.

Several hundreds of people team... are you writing about rocket science or DAW development?

Read the license for AU and VST3, notice the difference.

From what I know REAPER supports LV2 and Clap on ALL platforms.

-------------------

Note that almost no-one is developing plug-ins in particular format for particular platform. Developers are using "frameworks", which create several formats for several platforms. Yes, there can be some overhead for support of yet another format, but if you support 2-3 formats on 2 platforms, yet another one should not be a problem.
There can be some forced changes if format tries to "kill" something, f.e. if you was developing GM-like plug-in and want it in VST3 form... but that is not the case with CLAP.

So as I have already written, once/if JUCE include CLAP in the list of outputs, many plug-ins will be "magically" available in CLAP format.

-------------------

Supporting new format can hit some logical problems in "historical" program as Cakewalk. But in CLAP there is nothing orthogonal to existing approaches (unlike f.e. ARA) and that format dost not force  "wrapping own head" (like f.e. VST3). 

 

[Larioso]

On 1/29/2023 at 2:42 PM, El Diablo said:

The great thing about CLAP is there's nobody to shut it down.  VST can send a letter to everyone to stop creating new plugs, but with CLAP there's no agreement to sign!

CLAP is open source, released under the MIT license: No fees, memberships or proprietary license agreements are required before developing or distributing a CLAP capable host or plug-in, and the license never expires. - https://u-he.com/community/clap/

https://cleveraudio.org/

https://github.com/free-audio/clap

 

Anyone else interested?

And there is volontary workers and one day just stop working on it.

 

I have a couple of examples of a version handling system for source code, downloaders for various sites

- and it just stops being maintained and left in vain

 

CLAP can be another hype that just dies.

 

So nothing Cakewalk should waste time on unless Waves or some major vendor provides their plugins in CLAP.

 

it would be more useful for Cakewalk to implement VST midi plugins, since current MFX is DX based technology.

With MFX bays supporting to load a VST for midi all Piz midi plugins could be used right there will all kinds of features.

I can only use Piz plugins through Bluecat Audio Patchwork now, but incredibly useful.

 

Audio plugin bays support both DX and VST, why not MFX bays?

Edited June 11, 2023 by Larioso

[Ian Bland]

My selfish POV: currently writing a VST3 instrument plugin (now at "alpha" stage) the VST3 SDK and documentation are... not great... and it would be nice to have something different/better. I don't seem to be alone in thinking that VST3 is a developer headache, and that translates to difficulties for users when it works in one host but not another. Support for new proposed standards are always a chicken-and-egg situation but CLAP support looks worth considering.

VST3's been an interesting reminder for me about the often overlooked importance of quality documentation. Say what you like about Microsoft, at least they tell you how to use their APIs. Steinberg need competition at least to get them to pull their socks up in this regard.

[Guest]

On 4/22/2023 at 6:29 AM, tulamide said:

Last time I counted, it were 14 that are known. Plus those who currently develop without having announced anything yet. There's a list somewhere on the web, you can read through. So, by dozens, I mean dozens.

https://clapdb.tech/

Not exactly a 'Who's Who' of plugin/DAW developers

 

I'm not a Cakewalk user since 2015, so I don't care what happens there, but I certainly hope that Studio One Devs don't waist any time implementing it, much better things to work on than a plugin format that is likely going nowhere and is just going to shrivel up and die.

That's just my thoughts, hopes, which I like anyone else am entitled to.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Artie Choke