Request : Fix The FX Button

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

Couple of things

1. The tooltip for the FX button states the same message regardless of the state.  I think it should say " Enable All Audio Effects " when it's in bypass and " Bypass All Audio Effect" when it's enabled.

2. I also think the colour scheme is backwards. When the FX are engaged its' grey - when they are bypassed it's blue which doesn't make sense to me. I would rather have a positive indication that my FX are engaged and have it go grey when they are in bypass which would follow the logic of the rest of the toolbar.   

Now I understand where you're coming from as I'm sure the idea is that this an  FX "Bypass" button so it lights up when in bypass - However it isn't labelled as a bypass button either !

So to my mind it's either labelled wrong or it's backwards. An easy fix technically but a more difficult thing as everyone is used to it being backwards. ?

You could have another colour for when it's engaged, say green and keep the blue for disengaged , there is a precedent for having green as it's used for the solo button.

Thoughts  ? 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mark Morgon-Shaw

[Lord Tim]

I think the idea there is to make any colours be non-distracting unless you're specifically "activating" it, which I agree is counter to what the button actually does and is a bit confusing. I think a better icon is needed - one with FX and a line through it, so in the deactivated state, it's not lit, but when it's activated you'll clearly see that "the button with the FX crossed out is on" kind of thing, meaning your FX are bypassed.

I have a vague recollection that someone has done something similar in the Themes forum? Colin? Erik? Anyone?

But yeah, I think that would be nice to be added into the stock themes. I'd suggest the PDC button could have something similar too.

[Matthew White]

On 8/22/2022 at 11:27 AM, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

1. The tooltip for the FX button states the same message regardless of the state.  I think it should say " Enable All Audio Effects " when it's in bypass and " Bypass All Audio Effect" when it's enabled.

2. I also think the colour scheme is backwards. When the FX are engaged its' grey - when they are bypassed it's blue which doesn't make sense to me. I would rather have a positive indication that my FX are engaged and have it go grey when they are in bypass which would follow the logic of the rest of the toolbar.   

Now I understand where you're coming from as I'm sure the idea is that this an  FX "Bypass" button so it lights up when in bypass - However it isn't labelled as a bypass button either !

My thoughts... On number 1 , yes, that would definitely be better the way suggested. On number 2, I agree it's a bypass button so lit in bypass makes sense and think that any change to that would only confuse everyone but folks new to Cakewalk who learn that it's that way, I do however think that something such as an 'X' or diagonal line (as @Lord Tim said) over the text like on the 'Clear all Automation Write Enables' button could be a helpful hint for newcomers, those who have fear of the manual (lol) and those who forget these things sometimes, I know I've forgotten about things like this before!

Edited August 30, 2022 by Matthew White

[Canopus]

4 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

I have a vague recollection that someone has done something similar in the Themes forum? Colin? Erik? Anyone?

I updated the FX, PDC and 2x buttons in my themes Lead, Gran Vista and Carbon in November last year in such a way. The picture below shows the first two buttons in themes Gran Vista and Lead respectively before and after the change. The 2x button was changed in a similar way (not shown in this image).

As for the default PDC button being confusing, Noel actually agreed that it was in a recent post.

[Lord Tim]

Aha! There it is!

[Starship Krupa]

On 8/22/2022 at 4:36 AM, Lord Tim said:

I have a vague recollection that someone has done something similar in the Themes forum? Colin? Erik? Anyone?

Your memory serves you well. @Colin Nicholls was the first themer I saw actually improve upon the iconography by doing things like this. Matthew White deserves mention for making his FX rack bypass buttons less ambiguous. I think a couple of my themes might still be using FX bin bypass buttons I swiped from Matthew.

If you check out any of my themes, they all have less ambiguous buttons wherever applicable. Colin got there ahead of me on most of these things. My upsampling button toggles between "1X" and "2X." The "Pre" buttons for sends in my Console View toggle between "Pre" and "Post," and so on throughout the program wherever I could find something. It started with using the "MIDI jack stuck to a keyboard" icon for Instrument tracks, which are....a MIDI track bound to a synth track. The stock themes use the plain "keyboard" icon for that, which is just plain backward.

Also weird, and potentially more troublesome IMO, is a Mix module where brightly colored buttons for Mute, Solo, Input Echo, Dim Solo, Automation Offset and Plug-in Upsampling mean "this thing is active," and buttons for Plug-in Delay Compensation and Global FX Disable/Enable mean "this thing is turned off."

Colin and I took on a project to add our iconography to Mercury and Tungsten, for people who want to stick with the stock colors but still enjoy the benefits of not having to stop and remember whether the PDC button being lit up means that PDC is enabled or disabled, whether FX being lit up means that all FX are bypassed, etc. You can find the download link to Tungsten RS in my sig. Mercury RS is in Colin's. They address all this stuff, and touch up the buttons in various places to be more descriptive and/or visible.

Mercury, with everything in default mode:

Mercury RS, same state:

Mercury RS with all FX bypassed, PDC disabled, automation read disabled, and plug-in upsampling enabled:

Straightforward, eh? If it's lit up, that means it's working/enabled, if it has a slash through it, that means it's turned off/disabled. The Mute button might be considered an exception (by someone even more pedantic than I), but "bright 'M' = muted" was an industry standard before there was such a thing as a DAW.

Naturally, both Colin and I think that our other themes improve upon the stockers' aesthetics as well as legibility, but if all you want is the revised buttons, check out Mercury RS and Tungsten RS. They have all you're looking for. I also have a version called Tungsten RST that debuts my new Studio One/Ableton inspired transport buttons:

If that ain't enough to make you flip your lid, I also include a custom color preset that does things like make the grid lines in Track View more visible.

As a general suggestion, for anyone at all dissatisfied with Cakewalk's look (if you prefer flat over gradients, definitely check out my themes), go to the UI Themes subforum and look around, ask if you like. Multiple people have put many many hours into making Cakewalk easier on the eyes. Mine are done by and for someone with vision issues. I try to make my buttons as big as possible and I like contrast. Even if you just want to amuse yourself by customizing Cakewalk a little, there are some great-looking themes available.

[David Baay]

2 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

Mercury RS, same state:

Mercury RS with all FX bypassed, PDC disabled, automation read disabled, and plug-in upsampling enabled:

Straightforward, eh? If it's lit up, that means it's working/enabled, if it has a slash through it, that means it's turned off/disabled.

I disagree, and would definitely not want the Bakers to adopt this convention. I'd be okay with adding a slash to the FX and PDC buttons to clarify that they have 'Bypass/Override' functions, but the lit state should still be  indicating whether the button is engaged or not, regardless of whether it has an 'enabling' or 'defeating' function. So both states would show the slash. For me the mental conventions is that a project is in 'normal' playback/mixing mode when nothing is lit.

Actually, now that I think about it, for consistency with that convention, the Read button would have a slash and have its 'lit/engaged' status reversed in my perfect world. ;^)

[Starship Krupa]

8 minutes ago, David Baay said:

I disagree, and would definitely not want the Bakers to adopt this convention. I'd be okay with adding a slash to the FX and PDC buttons to clarify that they have 'Bypass/Override' functions, but the lit state should still be  indicating whether the button is engaged or not

<Nigel Tufnel>These have the buttons lit when the feature is active.</Nigel Tufnel>

I understand that convention, and the business of "normal" being the state that fades to the background, and "not normal" being the eye-catching one. It just suits my own ADHD brain to have it glaring at me. I can glance up and see that all the stuff that I want to be "on" is lit up.

That's the beauty of being able to make custom themes. We can have our Cakewalk and eat it too. I don't think there's any danger of los panaderos adopting the Colin/Krupa Conventions. But we can have it our way if we want. And if someone wants to use my themes with the stock conventions, it's an easy dance with Theme Editor to switch those button images.

Ya gotta admit that the "Pre/Post" and "1X/2X" things are cool. I encourage anyone to take whatever button images they want from my themes. So you can have your own Tungsten or Mercury with just those button changes.

54 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Actually, now that I think about it, for consistency with that convention, the Read button would have a slash and have its 'lit/engaged' status reversed in my perfect world. ;^)

It's easy enough to do.

[David Baay]

28 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

I don't think there's any danger of los panaderos adopting the Colin/Krupa Conventions.

No, probably not; just wanted to put my $.02 in for the record.

 

29 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

It's easy enough to do.

Yes, I've done other button changes/swaps for myself. I probably won't bother with the Read button because I almost never touch it and it's already pretty unobtrusive when 'lit'.

[Matthew White]

On 8/22/2022 at 2:20 PM, Matthew White said:

On number 2, I agree it's a bypass button so lit in bypass makes sense and think that any change to that would only confuse everyone but folks new to Cakewalk who learn that it's that way, I do however think that something such as an 'X' or diagonal line over the text like on the 'Clear all Automation Write Enables' button could be a helpful hint for newcomers, those who have fear of the manual (lol) and those who forget these things sometimes, I know I've forgotten about things like this before!

I've been thinking about this some more and have changed my mind, I think that when the mix module FX button is lit should mean FX are on, this would mean it would follow pretty much every other button i.e. lit means on/selected and unlit means off/unselected, I just won't make changes to my own Themes for this to avoid confusion for those who know how they already work or to go against the manual and any tutorials covering these, I would however like BandLab to change these to work this way though and would then obviously change my Themes to match. FWIW I think any changes to the Mix Module's 2x and Read Automation Buttons (as mentioned in comments above) are unnecessary as they already work as lit=on unlit=off.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Matthew White

[User 905133]

On 8/28/2022 at 9:49 AM, Matthew White said:

I think that when the mix module FX button is lit should mean FX are on . . . .

The button labelled FX is not an FX on/off button.  It is a Bypass All Audio Effects button.  In fact that's what the tooltip says. This is consistent with other Bypass (or Defeat) buttons/switches I have used in other software.  Logically speaking if Defeat/Bypass is engaged, it should be lit.  If Defeat/Bypass is not engaged is should be unlit.  

That being said, I can understand all the confusion. 

But to me the solution to user confusion could be quite simple.  It could say "Bypass Audio FX."  But that's a lot of words.  Maybe it could say "Bypass FX" keeping the tooltip the way it is.  Or, the button could have FX with a circle and a slash over it.  Or in the grey/off state [i.e., not bypassed/defeated] theme makers can choose a dulled color that says FX and in the engaged/on state [bypass/defeat is on] theme makers can use a brighter shade with a red circle and slash to show that FX are being bypassed.

Changing a Bypass/Defeat button to a Not Bypassed/Not Defeated button seems too radical. 

 

Edited October 6 by User 905133
fixed typo (to -> the)

[murat k.]

The problem is, these icons don't share the same logic:

W has a cross line but FX and PDC doesn't have. Also R! needs to be on state generally but it is highlighted unlike the others. 

If they had shared the same logic with the W icon they would be seen like this:

But too much red color on the Mix Module could be discomfortable. So when they are not lit, the red color could have been discoloured like this:

I'd prefer not to see red cross line on the icons when they are not lit. It would mean they are working as they are. Like this:

And when they lit they'd look like this:

Highlight with a red cross line would give an extra attention to prevent any mistake.

Edited August 28, 2022 by murat k.

[User 905133]

@murat k. Did you intend reply to address my post?  If so, you totally missed my point. If you are responding to someone else, you should quote who and what it is you are responding to.

[murat k.]

7 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

@murat k. Did you intend reply to address my post?  If so, you totally missed my point. If you are responding to someone else, you should quote who and what it is you are responding to.

I'm talking in general about the topic. If I respond to someone else I quote like I do in here. 

I read your post. There is nothing I said about the tooltips in my post. But if we talk about it, "Bypass Audio Effects" tooltip is right. Because there are two kind of FX available. MIDI FX and Audio FX. And that button affects only Audio FX.

And the same problem here, they don't share the same logic about the tooltip either. R! icons tooltip is "Enable/Bypass Read Automation". So if the FX icon had shared the same logic with the R! it should have been "Enable/Bypass Audio Effects"

[User 905133]

On 8/28/2022 at 3:04 PM, murat k. said:

And the same problem here, they don't share the same logic about the tooltip either. R! icons tooltip is "Enable/Bypass Read Automation". So if the FX icon had shared the same logic with the R! it should have been "Enable/Bypass Audio Effects"

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with most of what you said. However, you missed my point.  It is not an On/Off [Enable/Bypass] Audio FX button.

On 8/28/2022 at 10:55 AM, User 905133 said:

The button labelled FX is not an FX on/off button.  It is a Bypass All Audio Effects button.  In fact that's what to tooltip says. This is consistent with other Bypass (or Defeat) buttons/switches I have used in other software.  Logically speaking if Defeat/Bypass is engaged, it should be lit.  If Defeat/Bypass is not engaged is should be unlit.  

To reiterate: It is a Bypass button.  In the active state, the audio engine Bypasses All Audio Effects.  Whenever I see a bypass button lit in other software, something is bypassed (usually temporarily).    

I totally get the idea that some people are confused because they want (or expect) things to be parallel, symmetrical, etc. (in this case visually parallel wrt lit/unlit), but converting the button to a Non-bypass button [audio effects = on/off, where on is lit and off is unlit] is imposing a false sense of symmetry, parallelism, etc.  That's why I said:

On 8/28/2022 at 10:55 AM, User 905133 said:

Changing a Bypass/Defeat button to a Not Bypassed/Not Defeated button seems too radical. 

• When Mute (all tracks) is on, it is lit. 
• When Solo (all tracks) is on, it is lit. 
• When Input Echo (all tracks) is on, it is lit. 
• Logically then, when Bypass [all audio FX] is on, it should also be lit.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the button we are discussing is an Enable [Bypass] (all audio effects) button.  I think it is a Bypass (all audio effects) button.  I just re-read those sections of the Reference Guide but I have not confirmed what the manual says with my own experimentation.  That will take time that I don't have at the moment.

Quote

• Bypass all Effects:   Bypass all effects globally
• Global Automation Playback: Globally enable/disable all automation playback

Do people really want a Mix Button to enable/disable all FX globally when checking mixes? To me it seems safer to and more efficient to Bypass audio fx and then to unbypass audio fx. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by User 905133
to remove "all" in the final sentence to clarify what I was asking about in the prior sentence.

[murat k.]

11 hours ago, User 905133 said:

To me it seems safer to and more efficient to Bypass all audio fx and then to unbypass all audio fx. 

Unbypass means Enable already.

[murat k.]

1 hour ago, murat k. said:

12 hours ago, User 905133 said:

To me it seems safer to and more efficient to Bypass all audio fx and then to unbypass all audio fx. 

Unbypass means Enable already.

You'd be right if it was like "Enable/Bypass All Audio Effects". Because the button is not enabling All FX in the project even if they already disabled.

But there is no "All" word in the tooltip. So this will be not wrong "Enable/Bypass Audio Effects" it will also mean if there are disabled effects they would not be affected.

And there is no problem with the tooltip "Bypass Audio Effects". The problem is, tooltips or icons presentation logic differenciate one to other. This makes the confusion.

[User 905133]

2 hours ago, murat k. said:

And there is no problem with the tooltip "Bypass Audio Effects". 

I agree with this point.  And there is no problem with the button behaving like other Bypass buttons I have used.

• Bypass lit = Bypass is on
• Bypass unlit = Bypass is off 

• Mute lit = Mute is on
• Mute unlit = Mute is off

[murat k.]

2 hours ago, User 905133 said:

I agree with this point.  And there is no problem with the button behaving like other Bypass buttons I have used.

• Bypass lit = Bypass is on
• Bypass unlit = Bypass is off 

• Mute lit = Mute is on
• Mute unlit = Mute is off

You're wrong. This button is against the rule: R!

It is unlit when the Bypass is on.

22 hours ago, murat k. said:

The problem is, these icons don't share the same logic:

[User 905133]

You have now confirmed that you keep missing my point.  You say things like," You'd be right if . . . " and  "You're wrong."  Please note: Not once have I said such things about you.  To his credit, the OP framed his opinion in an open manner and solicited the opinions of others. I would encourage you to move on out of deference to the OP and to others who are also expressing personal preferences but without the personal antagonism.

Please stop it.  (Note: That's a polite request because I would really hate to see this thread closed.)