Envelope Adjust Over Time Range Bug (?) [SOLVED]

[Bill Phillips]

I noticed with a recent update that I could no longer use the Smart Tool to adjust envelopes over a time range in the clip pane. I now have to open the automation lane to do that. I've attached a video showing me first attempting to drag an envelope time range in the clip pane with no luck and then opening the automation lane and being able to adjust the envelope time range. Is this a bug? I'd prefer to be able to make these ends in either the clip pane or automation lane.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Bill Phillips

[msmcleod]

FWIW - I've fixed the issue for the next release.  The tempo track envelope will now be excluded as part of the envelope selection unless you're specifically editing in the tempo track.

[Lord Tim]

Apologies in advance if I'm not understanding this properly!

If you're in an Envelope mode in the edit filter and you already have a segment created (by doing one of the methods we talked about in this thread), ie: you have 2 automation points, a segment, and 2 more automation points, then CTRL+drag down on the actual envelope segment itself and it should do what you're after.

[msmcleod]

IIRC the only way you can ever change an envelope from the clip itself (as opposed to an automation lane) is:

1. Holding down CTRL when the cursor is near the top of the clip, which allows you to adjust the clip gain; or
2. Switching the track filter to an envelope

[Bill Phillips]

1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

IIRC the only way you can ever change an envelope from the clip itself (as opposed to an automation lane) is:

1. Holding down CTRL when the cursor is near the top of the clip, which allows you to adjust the clip gain; or
2. Switching the track filter to an envelope

If you blow up the GIF you'll see I used Option 2, switching the track filter to the envelope and it doesn't work. I used to work but it doesn't work now.

Option 1 doesn't apply because I'm trying to adjust a track envelope not clip gain.

[Lord Tim]

What I'm seeing here is that if you select a time range on the ruler and then go to a specific clip and try to drag down the envelope, the cursor will change but the envelope won't move.

On the other hand, if you select a range on the clip itself and drag down, this works as expected.

Not sure if this is a bug or a counter-intuitive UI thing, honestly.  @msmcleod is this as designed?

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Lord Tim

[Bill Phillips]

30 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

What I'm seeing here is that if you select a time range on the ruler and then go to a specific clip and try to drag down the envelope, the cursor will change but the envelope won't move.

On the other hand, if you select a range on the clip itself and drag down, this works as expected.

Not sure if this is a bug or a counter-intuitive UI thing, honestly.  @msmcleod is this as designed?

 

Thanks.  I'm selecting the range by moving the mouse pointer up in the track to the point where the smart tool changes to the envelope adjust tool and clicking. That used to select the envelope range between the two closest nodes and allow it to be dragged up/down. Now it selects the range but won't drag it. releasing and re-clicking doesn't work either.

[msmcleod]

Ok, found the issue - because you're using the time ruler for the selection, the tempo track is also being selected, and it doesn't like you altering that at the same time as another envelope.

It should be a simple fix to exclude the tempo track in these circumstances, however you should bear in mind that making a selection with the time ruler may have unexpected results, for example....

In SONAR Platinum, open up one of the demo projects ( e.g. the Sophia Jane one ), and set the track filter to Volume automation on more than one track.  Now do a selection from the time ruler, and use the shelf tool on one of the envelopes to move the automation for that region. 

You'll see that the automation is changed for both of the tracks that were set to Volume automation.  This is expected, because you've used the time ruler for selection, which selects all of the envelopes in all of the tracks that have the filter set to an envelope.  In fact, you don't even need a track to have the filter set... any automation lane that is currently open will also be affected:

To be honest, I'm in two minds as to whether this should be fixed, as I'm sure most users won't know that using the time ruler for selection in this way will also select all other open envelopes, and may be altering those envelopes without knowing... especially if they just happen to have an automation lane open off-screen.

If you really do want to affect more than one envelope at once, you can still do it using the selection tool.

A better way is to select using the bottom half of the clip, or the selection tool itself - that way only the envelope you want to modify is being selected:

[Lord Tim]

Yeah, valid points there for sure - being able to adjust multiple envelopes is a useful feature! Because I only had a single track open when I was doing this, it felt like it should do the same thing because it'd be contextual as to what envelope you'd want to adjust if I hovered over a particular track, but now I think about it, you'd lose a handy feature by forcing it to be this way. I do typically do the time range over a clip thing rather than the ruler method though.  EDIT: That said, when the cursor changes and it doesn't allow you to actually move an envelope (caused by the Tempo track), it's a bit confusing because you'd expect it to do something based on the cursor changing.

@Bill Phillips - that sorts out my question/issue. Does that apply to what you're seeing too?

Edited August 14, 2022 by Lord Tim

[Bill Phillips]

5 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Ok, found the issue - because you're using the time ruler for the selection, the tempo track is also being selected, and it doesn't like you altering that at the same time as another envelope.

Thank you for the detailed response and suggestions. I'm usually adjusting existing automation and don't have snap turned on. So dragging in the bottom half of clips will just add nodes. Also I don't make selections in the time ruler. I click in the top half of the clip between two nodes on the edit filter selected envelope to select the segment between the two nodes. Cakewalk adds the time ruler selection. 

[Bill Phillips]

4 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

Yeah, valid points there for sure - being able to adjust multiple envelopes is a useful feature! Because I only had a single track open when I was doing this, it felt like it should do the same thing because it'd be contextual as to what envelope you'd want to adjust if I hovered over a particular track, but now I think about it, you'd lose a handy feature by forcing it to be this way. I do typically do the time range over a clip thing rather than the ruler method though.  EDIT: That said, when the cursor changes and it doesn't allow you to actually move an envelope (caused by the Tempo track), it's a bit confusing because you'd expect it to do something based on the cursor changing.

@Bill Phillips - that sorts out my question/issue. Does that apply to what you're seeing too?

Yes. I think so. To edit envelopes in multiple tracks you should be able to select them using methods other than the lasso method. I'm really fond of being able click in the top half of the clip to select the segment between the two adjacent nodes for adjusting automation. 

[David Baay]

16 hours ago, Bill Phillips said:

I don't make selections in the time ruler. I click in the top half of the clip between two nodes on the edit filter selected envelope to select the segment between the two nodes. Cakewalk adds the time ruler selection. 

This is working as expected in the latest release for me. The time ruler selection only happens if the track is sticky-selected rather than just focused. But either way works as described in the parent track without having to open the automation lane. I don't know why it's not working in your original video clip. Can your reproduce it in a new, basic  project?

[Lord Tim]

Champion!  

[Bill Phillips]

1 hour ago, David Baay said:

This is working as expected in the latest release for me. The time ruler selection only happens if the track is sticky-selected rather than just focused. But either way works as described in the parent track without having to open the automation lane. I don't know why it's not working in your original video clip. Can your reproduce it in a new, basic  project?

Can you define sticky-selected? Couldn't find in the local or pdf documentation.

What I'm seeing is with no track selected [track no. highlighted] or having the focus [track name highlighted] the time range on the time ruler and tempo track  are highlighted along with the audio track between the two nodes on the envelope on either side of the cursor when I click near the top of the track to engage the automation adjust tool [not sure that's the right name].

[David Baay]

Sticky-selected = track number is highighted. This is old terminology that may no longer appear in the Ref. Guide, but the functionality is unchanged for ages.

EDIT: looks like I was mistaken that the time ruler selection wasn't happening in both cases. But it disapears on releasing the left-click after making the move if you don't have the track pre-selected so I hadn't initially noticed it happening while making the move.

In any case, I can only reproduce a problem when selecting in the timeline as Mark described so its not clear to me that he's fixed your specific issue.

Edited August 15, 2022 by David Baay

[Bill Phillips]

1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

FWIW - I've fixed the issue for the next release.  The tempo track envelope will now be excluded as part of the envelope selection unless you're specifically editing in the tempo track.

Thank you. I hope that means that I'll be able to click near the top of an audio track between two automation nodes on the envelope selected in the edit filter and use the automation region adjust tool that appears to drag the segment between the nodes up/down.

[Bill Phillips]

14 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Sticky-selected = track number is highighted. This is old terminology that may no longer appear in the Ref. Guide, but the functionality is unchanged for ages..

Thanks for the clarification. I think of that as selected which also makes that track the focus which highlights the track name.  Whereas changing the focus by clicking on the track name doesn't change the selection. I think of selected tracks as included in any operation whereas only one track can have the focus.

[Bill Phillips]

4 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Apologies in advance if I'm not understanding this properly!

If you're in an Envelope mode in the edit filter and you already have a segment created (by doing one of the methods we talked about in this thread), ie: you have 2 automation points, a segment, and 2 more automation points, then CTRL+drag down on the actual envelope segment itself and it should do what you're after.

Thanks. It sure does! The difference appears to be it leaves an extra pair of nodes that the region adjust tool doesn't. I guess I'd forgotten about that option since, up until recently the region adjust tool has been a more tidy option. But, I'll use CTRL+drag for now. Thanks again.

[David Baay]

1 hour ago, Bill Phillips said:

The difference appears to be it leaves an extra pair of nodes that the region adjust tool doesn't. I guess I'd forgotten about that option since, up until recently the region adjust tool has been a more tidy option.

Hmmm... now I'm confused. LOL

In my case, it's the 'adjust tool' techique that creates  new nodes. Ctrl+drag moves the existing nodes, resulting in linear transitions to the previous and next nodes on either side of the segment rather than the jumps you're after. ?