FEATURE REQ - Ability to Easily View and Edit Bank/Patch Events

[Michael Ennis]

Nowadays more and more people are controlling external devices during live playback in an automated fashion. This used to mostly be keyboardists but now were looking at guitarist, bassists and vocalists wanting to do it as well.

Currently the only way to edit a Bank/Patch event is via the Event Viewer. In Track View you can actually see the patch number and where it lines up right on the midi clip (although to see it you have to stretch the clip out a ways). From here, workflow logic says we should be able to double click the clip and edit the event in the PRV but we can't. 

Would be possible to allow us to edit them in the Controller Pane? Maybe in an Automation Lane that could be converted to a midi track eventually or something? 

It's pretty painful to automate them for an entire song right now when you may need to enter, change value or move an event to a different bar/beat.

Thanks for listening!

[sjoens]

Not sure what Event Viewer you're using but...

There are several ways to access Bank/Patch changes.

File Menu > Insert > Bank/Patch Change...

In Track View go to the top of the Controller Pane, click the righthand button and select ALL. Bank & Patch viewers are now displayed. 

Console View Sends/Bank/Patch Module which is also displayed in the Track Inspector to the left of Track View.

They can be changed in PRV but this is one area CbB can be improved on.

Go to the top of this website and click the Cakewalk by BandLab tab. Then click Online Documentation or Reference Guide PDF for more information.

[Promidi]

The Inspector only shows the initial patch for a MIDI track.

He means patch changes that have been entered within the project.   It would be good if we could see them via the PRV  (preferable using a PRV controller lane)

I am not sure what you mean by “In Track View go to the top of the Controller Pane”

[user 905133]

Based on the number of vocal advocates for the PRV in the forum,  it would seem to be a benefit to PRV users not to have to use the Event List to change patches/presets (as long as it doesn't require non-PRV users to have to use the PRV).  Having a patch/preset lane makes sense since there are already options for Velocity, Wheel, Channel Aftertouch, CCs, RPNs, and NRPNs. 

On 8/4/2022 at 11:44 PM, Michael Ennis said:

From here, workflow logic says we should be able to double click the clip and edit the event in the PRV but we can't. 

For me your "workflow logic" is not universal.  Having a tab in the MultiDock set to a patch change track right next to a tab for a MultiTrack PRV works quite well for me.  I can click in a P number in the patch change track and the specific event is selected in the Event View (and vice versa).

Edited August 6, 2022 by User 905133
edits done

[Rok TheKasbah]

You mean like this?

 

The original Cakewalk sequencer had very efficient immediate access to all of the key variables involved with midi sequencing.

you could arrow up or down quickly to get to different tracks or click on them with the mouse. To change the Bank or Patch just click or arrow in to the corresponding square in the grid and use the plus/minus to very easily change between patches, banks, etc. You could also shift time of a track forward or backwards for say aligning one shot sample to sound how you want. There was quick access to transposing pitch of midi events on a track by using plus or minus keys, you could shift by an octave in one click. You could even do this in real time on a track while a sequence was playing for a really cool effect.

One of the really awesome aspects of such a workflow is how immediate it was to experiment and audition different sounds when adding a new part. You could arrow or click to the patch square on a specific track and play the controller keyboard with one hand while using other hand and plus or minus keys to scroll through different sounds extremely fast. And also you could use this same functionality to experiment with different sounds for a melody or bassline or drum pattern you had already recorded.  You could click or arrow to the patch square of a track while the sequence was playing and use the plus or minus keys to instantly scroll through all the patches of a particular synth, drum machine etc. And by clicking in the Midi Channel square of a track, and using plus or minus to change the midi channels, you could instantly switch the actual synth or drum machine entirely  that the events on that track would trigger.

There was no menu surfing, or opening multiple sets of folders to eventually look at the name of a single sound, then drag and drop it on to a track etc, or look at someone elses taxonomy for how they would classify information to try and find or audition new sounds.  Unfortunately all modern DAWS suffer from the condition of losing sight of original efficiency/ functionality.

Obviously modern DAWS perform amazing almost miraculous functions that early music software couldn't dream of. Especially being able to compose with an entire studio worth of synths and sampler VSTi  all just living in a portable laptop.

I wish someone would combine all the good aspects of old and new with ergonomics and intuitive functionality being the central pillar of the design.  Perhaps a project that invited tens of thousands of DAW  users and producers to join in on the design of the feature set.

Requests and design concepts that get suggested by the most people would get put at the top of the list for the build. Or perhaps an open source DAW that was somewhat modular so that if someone really wanted a feature or functionality it would at least be possible for them to either themself or by hiring someone, build the functionality in to the design.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Rok TheKasbah

[sjoens]

7 hours ago, Promidi said:

I am not sure what you mean by “In Track View go to the top of the Controller Pane”

 

7 hours ago, Promidi said:

He means patch changes that have been entered within the project.   It would be good if we could see them via the PRV  (preferable using a PRV controller lane)

Patch changing is clunky at best in Sonar/CbB. Surprising since it's the best MIDI Daw out there. Either Samplitude or SO does this well in PRV.

[murat k.]

Yes, we need "Patch Change" in the" MIDI Envelope Menu" to edit Program Changes with the Automation Envelopes in the Track View or with the Controllers in the PRV. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by murat k.

[murat k.]

Without automation, changing it with a shortcut key seems the simplest way.

[murat k.]

And when the automation thing for Bank/Patch Name happened, it will be great to see Bank/Patch Names as Values when "Show Values on Envelopes" option is enabled.

[murat k.]

Also we will able to create Articulation Maps for Patch Changes when it added to the the MIDI Event area in Articulation Map Editor.

[murat k.]

Sorry it seems we already have it. ?

[murat k.]

It seems that we can't change Bank's with Patch Event in Articulation Maps.

There are 2 CC Values but the second one (Vel/CC) is not functioning at all. The second one could have been mapped to the Banks.

[murat k.]

By the way I created an Articulation Map for Patch Changes 0-127 CC with General MIDI names. It can be used as a template for different patches.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by murat k.

[RBH]

On 8/6/2022 at 2:14 AM, Rok TheKasbah said:

You mean like this?

 

The original Cakewalk sequencer had very efficient immediate access to all of the key variables involved with midi sequencing.

you could arrow up or down quickly to get to different tracks or click on them with the mouse. To change the Bank or Patch just click or arrow in to the corresponding square in the grid and use the plus/minus to very easily change between patches, banks, etc. You could also shift time of a track forward or backwards for say aligning one shot sample to sound how you want. There was quick access to transposing pitch of midi events on a track by using plus or minus keys, you could shift by an octave in one click. You could even do this in real time on a track while a sequence was playing for a really cool effect.

One of the really awesome aspects of such a workflow is how immediate it was to experiment and audition different sounds when adding a new part. You could arrow or click to the patch square on a specific track and play the controller keyboard with one hand while using other hand and plus or minus keys to scroll through different sounds extremely fast. And also you could use this same functionality to experiment with different sounds for a melody or bassline or drum pattern you had already recorded.  You could click or arrow to the patch square of a track while the sequence was playing and use the plus or minus keys to instantly scroll through all the patches of a particular synth, drum machine etc. And by clicking in the Midi Channel square of a track, and using plus or minus to change the midi channels, you could instantly switch the actual synth or drum machine entirely  that the events on that track would trigger.

There was no menu surfing, or opening multiple sets of folders to eventually look at the name of a single sound, then drag and drop it on to a track etc, or look at someone elses taxonomy for how they would classify information to try and find or audition new sounds.  Unfortunately all modern DAWS suffer from the condition of losing sight of original efficiency/ functionality.

Obviously modern DAWS perform amazing almost miraculous functions that early music software couldn't dream of. Especially being able to compose with an entire studio worth of synths and sampler VSTi  all just living in a portable laptop.

I wish someone would combine all the good aspects of old and new with ergonomics and intuitive functionality being the central pillar of the design.  Perhaps a project that invited tens of thousands of DAW  users and producers to join in on the design of the feature set.

Requests and design concepts that get suggested by the most people would get put at the top of the list for the build. Or perhaps an open source DAW that was somewhat modular so that if someone really wanted a feature or functionality it would at least be possible for them to either themself or by hiring someone, build the functionality in to the design.

Those were the days - extremely efficient. !  I think the track inspector could use a much better UI. Particularly with transpose slider - it's nearly useless to me....there are many places you can key in numerical settings, but you can't key in a transposition value in the slider widget.

[sjoens]

It would be cool to mouse hover and scroll over the Inspector's Bank/Patch buttons to change them instead of as an option to opening a list.... like Inspector's MIDI Key+ works.

Edited August 31, 2022 by sjoens

[msmcleod]

On 8/7/2022 at 3:41 PM, murat k. said:

It seems that we can't change Bank's with Patch Event in Articulation Maps.

There are 2 CC Values but the second one (Vel/CC) is not functioning at all. The second one could have been mapped to the Banks.

You can change banks in articulations. You need to use:

• For "normal" bank changes (i.e. MSB/LSB) - use Kind = CC 14b ,  Note/CC = 0,  Vel/CC = your bank
• For Controller 32, use Kind = CC,  Note/CC = 32,  Vel/CC = your bank
• For Controller 0, use Kind = CC,  Note/CC = 0,  Vel/CC = your bank
• For "Patch 100", use Kind = Patch,  Note/CC = your bank

Then add your Patch event immediately afterwards.

[Promidi]

1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

You can change banks in articulations. You need to use:

• For "normal" bank changes (i.e. MSB/LSB) - use Kind = CC 14b ,  Note/CC = 0,  Vel/CC = your bank
• For Controller 32, use Kind = CC,  Note/CC = 32,  Vel/CC = your bank
• For Controller 0, use Kind = CC,  Note/CC = 0,  Vel/CC = your bank
• For "Patch 100", use Kind = Patch,  Note/CC = your bank

Then add your Patch event immediately afterwards.

I believe that a patch/bank controller lane in the PRV that can look up patches as defined by a VST or an INS  file would be much easier.

Patches are easier to look up by defined names than trying to remember what patch number is assigned to what patch/bank - especially when you are using a synth that has over 1250 patches (which I do).

Until then I am just going to continue using the standard Insert Patch/Bank command to insert patch/bank changes.

[sjoens]

Using the PRV Controller Pane or a 2nd controller pane or another TV Header lane would be cool. Currently the B/P buttons don't change leaving you scratching your head when ICR sets in.... or is that CRI?! 

Oddly, setting Controller type in Event List seems to have no affect on my synth. It plays correctly no matter which one is selected.

FWIW I always wondered why the "Insert" commands were split between the Insert Menu and the Project Menu.

Edited August 31, 2022 by sjoens

[sjoens]

Bug??? When closing the Articulation window with OK or Cancel, Cakewalk disappears to the background and I'm immediately sent to another open program forcing me to navigate back to Cakewalk.

[David Baay]

On 8/30/2022 at 7:43 PM, RBH said:

On 8/6/2022 at 1:14 AM, Rok TheKasbah said:

You mean like this?

 

The original Cakewalk sequencer had very efficient immediate access to all of the key variables involved with midi sequencing.

you could arrow up or down quickly to get to different tracks or click on them with the mouse. To change the Bank or Patch just click or arrow in to the corresponding square in the grid and use the plus/minus to very easily change between patches, banks, etc. You could also shift time of a track forward or backwards for say aligning one shot sample to sound how you want. There was quick access to transposing pitch of midi events on a track by using plus or minus keys, you could shift by an octave in one click. You could even do this in real time on a track while a sequence was playing for a really cool effect.

One of the really awesome aspects of such a workflow is how immediate it was to experiment and audition different sounds when adding a new part. You could arrow or click to the patch square on a specific track and play the controller keyboard with one hand while using other hand and plus or minus keys to scroll through different sounds extremely fast. And also you could use this same functionality to experiment with different sounds for a melody or bassline or drum pattern you had already recorded.  You could click or arrow to the patch square of a track while the sequence was playing and use the plus or minus keys to instantly scroll through all the patches of a particular synth, drum machine etc. And by clicking in the Midi Channel square of a track, and using plus or minus to change the midi channels, you could instantly switch the actual synth or drum machine entirely  that the events on that track would trigger.

Those were the days - extremely efficient. !  I think the track inspector could use a much better UI. Particularly with transpose slider - it's nearly useless to me....there are many places you can key in numerical settings, but you can't key in a transposition value in the slider widget.

I'm pretty sure the Inspector can do all of this in much the same way with the exception of quickly selecting a patch per measure, but that was only possible because that view only allowed editing at resolutions down to a measure! Anything finer had to be done in the Event List.

But the ability to "arrow up or down" to increment/decrement any control, including Channel, Bank, Patch and Key+, is still present. Just select the control and use +/- keys to inc/dec by one or ]/[ keys to  inc/dec by 10 (or 12 in the Key+ control for obvious reasons). And to enter a specific value, just hit Enter to enable editing. I think advancements in graphical mouse-driven editing has caused a lot of people - including me - to abandon keyboard-based editing, but the capabilities are largely still in place, just a bit harder to keep all the shortcuts in mind because there are so many more view and functions available now. No doubt there are limitations, and keyboard navigation has become more awkward in some parts of the UI, but it's worth re-exploring the possibilities.