Drum Tracks

[AndyB01]

So, as a non-drummer, I was wondering how folks approach drum tracks?

I definitely don't give these the attention they deserve, my go-to VST of choice is EzDrummer and I tend to (fairly quickly) pick a groove I like (based on what sounds right in my head for the track in question) then I use the variations available to build a song track. I might add a few fills and a few hand-played cymbals for effect and that's about it.

I'm not sure many of my drum tracks are humanly playable by one drummer on one kit; after all there's only so much you can do with two hands and two feet - right?

That sort of bothers me, I wouldn't knowingly program a midi guitar to play a chord that couldn't be physically fretted or play notes on instruments that are out of their natural range - so why should I be less careful with drums?

I guess my test is, if it sounds good, I'll run with it; but my lack of attention to detail still wrankles a bit.

Do the drummers on here listen to tracks like mine, pick up on those passages where I defy the laws of natural humanity and get bent out of shape about it? Or do they just roll their eyes and think, there goes another eejit who couldn't hit a cow's a*se with a banjo to a beat - let alone play or program drums and keep time. ?

Am I alone in my crimes against drum tracks or are all non-drummers guilty as charged to a greater or lesser extent?

I do love the drums as an instrument and wish I had learned to play - kudos (and sincere apologies) to all you real drummers.

All tips on how I can improve or resources where I can learn to do better gratefully received.

Andy

[Byron Dickens]

1 hour ago, AndyB01 said:

I'm not sure many of my drum tracks are humanly playable by one drummer on one kit; after all there's only so much you can do with two hands and two feet - right?

That sort of bothers me, I wouldn't knowingly program a midi guitar to play a chord that couldn't be physically fretted or play notes on instruments that are out of their natural range - so why should I be less careful with drums?

Try to imagine playing the part. That will fix most of it.

 

1 hour ago, AndyB01 said:

I guess my test is, if it sounds good, I'll run with it

That's what really matters.

 

1 hour ago, AndyB01 said:

Do the drummers on here listen to tracks like mine, pick up on those passages where I defy the laws of natural humanity and get bent out of shape about it? Or do they just roll their eyes and think, there goes another eejit who couldn't hit a cow's a*se with a banjo to a beat - let alone play or program drums and keep time. ?

Who are you doing this for? Them or you?

 

1 hour ago, AndyB01 said:

I do love the drums as an instrument and wish I had learned to play - kudos (and sincere apologies) to all you real drummers.

Nothing is stopping you....

1 hour ago, AndyB01 said:

All tips on how I can improve or resources where I can learn to do better gratefully received.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+program+drums&t=fpas&ia=web

[rsinger]

Going back to the 80's I've seen drummers use sequencers to play high hat parts on some songs. Some bands like the grateful dead had two drummers. Does it matter if it sounds good?

[rsinger]

Not drums, but that reminded me of seeing the who back in the 70's. They used tape or a tape loop for baba o'reily;  I remember looking around for a keyboard player ? It was only years later that I read they were using tape.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZBhgZBjiLE

 

[AndyB01]

Interesting replies and thoughts - I reckon I am over-thinking it but appreciate the links, I'll take a look at those when I get the time. @bdickens - as for what's stopping me learning the drums - how long do you have... ?

• wife
• space
• cost
• noise
• neighbours
• lack of talent
• too many instruments already (wife's opinion)
• time
• work
• chores
• did I mention the wife?

????

[Byron Dickens]

50 minutes ago, AndyB01 said:

Interesting replies and thoughts - I reckon I am over-thinking it but appreciate the links, I'll take a look at those when I get the time. @bdickens - as for what's stopping me learning the drums - how long do you have... ?

Fair enough. However:

 

51 minutes ago, AndyB01 said:

wife

 

52 minutes ago, AndyB01 said:

too many instruments already (wife's opinion)

I would hope this could be negotiated.

 

53 minutes ago, AndyB01 said:

space

 Understandable.

 

54 minutes ago, AndyB01 said:

• noise
• neighbours

53 minutes ago, AndyB01 said:

Electronic drums. Solved.

55 minutes ago, AndyB01 said:

• time
• work
• chores

Understandable.

 

1 hour ago, AndyB01 said:

lack of talent

BS excuse. Like genius, talent is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.

 

[AndyB01]

@bdickens I love your outlook on life ?

[Byron Dickens]

I am a big believer in people can pretty much do whatever they want to do if they put their minds to it. You just have to put in the work.

Yes, some people have to work a lot harder and for some it comes easier, but if you put in the  work you will get there.

I prefer to think in terms of how can I do this rather than reasons why I can't.

 

I realize I am also extremely fortunate to live in a rural area where I don't have to worry much about the neighbors and to have a wife who is not only supportive but who is also my sometimes partner in crime.

[Byron Dickens]

Back on topic: I forgot to mention to really listen critically to the drums on songs like what you are trying to do and emulate that.

[Tim Smith]

@AndyB01 We seem to be similar in that we aren't expressly drummers unless sitting behind a kit playing around counts for something. I have played bass. I fact I'm probably playing bass tomorrow. Drums, bass and often rhythm guitar are what hold the beat or bottom end of most songs. Most musicians have a sense of rhythm.

My issue is usually with having too many choices in both drums and loops. Let me know if you ever get that simplified because I have a tough time with it. Would be like a pianist who can pick the sound of each key almost. It's crazy what we can do with drum software. Me being a classic overthinker I often get bogged down.

One thing that has helped me is to listen to tracks I respect and listen to the drums in them. If you do this is becomes apparent in most songs, the drummer could almost read a book while he or she is drumming. Very simple rhythms using very simple samples, often very dry in a mix.

I almost need to approach it like I'm decluttering things most of the time. What I have, or what anyone has even with something like EZDrummer is severe overkill.

In a word-Simplify. Then if I need something more I'll add it later. If I have an 8 bar verse I might put a sample drum under it with a feel I like fully expecting to modify the midi later. I put enough rhythm under the song to make a complete song. Then I go back and make changes. Often I won't use a canned loop. I might use some of one and make modifications to it later to make it feel like a real drummer felt a sudden urge to hit a snare for emphasis. Even though I'm not a drummer i try to imagine I am when putting together drums.

Even though most drum parts are fairly simple, I have found that with later modifications they can sometimes take enormous amounts of time to make the way I want them to be. Might be 20% or more of my time into one song.

[Byron Dickens]

Oh yeah. It is really hard to go wrong with doing something simple. It would be really unusual to say the least to ruin a song by underplaying.

[Glenn Stanton]

As noted earlier, some band have 2 drummers. I've done some things with 3 drum vsti setup up to play different parts as if I have 2 drummers and a percussionist. So as several have repeated if it sounds good it is good. And if you program something that is complex enough, and you or someone else wants to perform it live, then either bring the tracks or hire enough people to play it... One more thought, simpler is generally going to sound more realistic in most situations. One thing I tend to do is set up the midi for the song and then strip out as much as I can while still retaining the essential aspects. This leaves room for other instruments which don't mask the drums  or are masked by them. Hi hats and cymbals are usually the first things I scale back. 

[Quick Math]

As a drummer, I have no problem making realistic drum parts. But in reality, I have heard of songs where the drum part is a bit unrealistic when it's supposed to be realistic, like they have closed hihat while playing djent metal style double pedal. Listening to those actually make me think how I can possibly, or creatively play it rather than complaining and crying like "No it's not realistic!" although I sometimes feel like we drummers don't usually do this, we can't do this...how can we do this...or perhaps can we, actually...?

For that example, I try to think that It's actually playable if you set 2 hihats with one always closed or something. Also, nowadays, if a drummer used some sort of sampler or e-drum set up, more things can be technically playable.

There are drummers who can play very complex drum'n'bass patterns which originally weren't meant for playing it on an actual drum set. I actually think, some drum patterns by non drummers are actually creative and inspiring sometimes especially when it's complicated.

When it comes just a normal rock drum, non drummers probably don't know how "lazy" drummers can be. What I mean is, let's say there is a normal 8 beat pattern, and you hit a crash cymbal at the beginning of the bar. Let's say you use your right hand to hit the cymbal and then subsequently hit hihats to continue the 8 beat pattern. This totally depends on how you play it or the tempo, but sometimes we don't hit the hihat until next snare hit. This is because the accent is basically on snare and when you hit snare with your left hand and hit hihat with your right hand simultaneously, it's easier than busily hitting all the 8 beats hihat.

This is one example but I really do something like this when my right hand gets busy. There are times when hihat or ride cymbal parts are omitted. And naturally, drummers are not robots so we tend to make phrases easy to play, like imagine a drum and bass pattern snare with random accent on 16th notes while having busy hihats vs average simple rock drum patterns. 

That's said when I actually write Midi with my mouse, I often forget these or write something that is not so natural nor easy to play but technically playable if I try hard. Maybe I can't play it but someone better can.

 

[Byron Dickens]

39 minutes ago, Quick Math said:

As a drummer, I have no problem making realistic drum parts. But in reality, I have heard of songs where the drum part is a bit unrealistic when it's supposed to be realistic, like they have closed hihat while playing djent metal style double pedal.

Drop clutch.

[rsinger]

15 hours ago, Quick Math said:

Also, nowadays, if a drummer used some sort of sampler or e-drum set up, more things can be technically playable.

Yeah, I've noticed a fair number of drummers and percussionists using an spd-sx. I got one to input midi, but it's fun to trigger loops on some of the pads as well ...

[AndyB01]

On 8/7/2022 at 4:53 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

As noted earlier, some band have 2 drummers. 

I spent my late teens listening to Genesis and God alone knows how many drummers they had playing on some of their albums - so I guess I think anything is possible. ?

Some great insights on this thread that have been a really interesting read - so as the OP that started it - thanks to everyone who has contributed.

Andy

[Byron Dickens]

27 minutes ago, AndyB01 said:

I spent my late teens listening to Genesis and God alone knows how many drummers they had playing on some of their albums - so I guess I think anything is possible. ?

Phil was just that good.

[Quick Math]

Yeah, drop clutch, 2nd hihat, foot pedal that triggers snare or other sound, or 2 drummers, or the Dualist pedal. ?

Dang, I like Djent. First time I listened to Periphery's first album, I felt it's like a machine and it's programmed by non drummer, and then recorded by a drummer. From second album, the drum part became much more natural. I liked both styles, but I liked that digital, machine-precision drum, too.  Before knowing Djent, I would have said that that level of complicated bass drum pattern is unrealistic and not playable. But now, I would say anything is possible.

Guitar is more difficult to guess for me like is this chord playable? Is switching chords from this to that possible? Or is this arpeggio possible? (Okay let's try to think they use special tuning ?)

The exact song I was taking about is this, it's a game sound track and I think game music used to have a lot of humanly impossible to play kind of parts. This one is more realistic and the drum part is most probably playable than any old game music.

 

[rsinger]

Many years ago, Herbie Hancock had two drummers on electronic drums for his Future Shock tour, although one also played a fair amount of percussion. Great Show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDzqrO78V38