RESYNC AUDIO IN PROJECT / TAKE POSITION LISTING IN TIME

[Milton Sica]

RESYNC AUDIO IN PROJECT / TAKE POSITION LISTING IN TIME

This week I had a problem in one of my projects. I don't know how, but all the audios (WAV) were excluded from the project.

The Audio files were all in their own folder intact.

However, as there were several takes I had a lot of difficulty in repositioning the files in their original positions in the project.

Then came a question:

Is there a list in Cakewalk that tells you in which positions/time each shot starts?

That way it would be much easier to put the wavs back in their correct places.

[John Vere]

Not that I'm aware of. Cakewalk seems to use incremental numbering but it's never been very logical. One thing that might help is to open the audio folder and using windows column list choose the dates created or modified column and see if that helps. I will assume you don't have a back up copy of the project?   

 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by John Vere

[Milton Sica]

3 hours ago, John Vere said:

Not that I'm aware of. Cakewalk seems to use incremental numbering but it's never been very logical. One thing that might help is to open the audio folder and using windows column list choose the dates created or modified column and see if that helps. I will assume you don't have a back up copy of the project?   

Thank you very much.

Unfortunately this doesn't help much, because the biggest problem is precisely knowing where (time) in the project each file should be placed.

Perhaps this could turn out to be a very interesting logging implementation to record. It would be great to be able to identify exactly the time where each recording/wav should be inserted.

[Bill Phillips]

5 hours ago, Milton Sica said:

Is there a list in Cakewalk that tells you in which positions/time each shot starts?

Doesn't clip properties provide the start time and length for each clip? Also you may be able to load clips at their original start time.

[John Vere]

Well Cakewalk would naturally know all that information otherwise the audio would not play in sync. But that information will be imbedded in the CWP files data code as zero's and ones. One would have to somehow read the data inside the CWP files.

The scary mess found in an audio folder is one reason I have taken to exporting all my broken up audio tracks as stems and then bring them back in as one whole track that always starts at zero. At first I did this to convert projects from 44.1 to 48hz but then I also found that this was the best way to have audio for doing other things like slowing down or speeding up a song.  I use save as to have a fresh copy and when done you look in my audio folder and there is only 1 file per track now. 

[Milton Sica]

12 minutes ago, Bill Phillips said:

Doesn't clip properties provide the start time and length for each clip? Also you may be able to load clips at their original start time.

This information only exists when the wav (clip) is in the project.

The problem is when, as I described, the file disappears from the project.

[Milton Sica]

15 minutes ago, John Vere said:

Well Cakewalk would naturally know all that information otherwise the audio would not play in sync. But that information will be imbedded in the CWP files data code as zero's and ones. One would have to somehow read the data inside the CWP files.

The scary mess found in an audio folder is one reason I have taken to exporting all my broken up audio tracks as stems and then bring them back in as one whole track that always starts at zero. At first I did this to convert projects from 44.1 to 48hz but then I also found that this was the best way to have audio for doing other things like slowing down or speeding up a song.  I use save as to have a fresh copy and when done you look in my audio folder and there is only 1 file per track now. 

This is very good as it is a big step towards recovery in cases like the one I described.

In these cases, unfortunately, I have not found a solution.

It's too bad, because ALL WAVS are there in their own folder and without possibility of insertion in their correct times.

[John Vere]

Question? are the original audio tracks all there? As in there are tracks for the missing audio but they contain no data. Or are the complete tracks totally missing? 

If the tracks are still there but empty of data my approach would be to open the audio folder in the browser and using the audio file track names drag them into a lane for that track. Use as many lanes as needed.  I would guess that using the numbers assigned  and the time stamp as shown in my screen shot would tell me what order they were originally in. Then soloing each lane along with the rest of the music to slowly figure out were they belong in time. 

[Bill Phillips]

4 hours ago, Milton Sica said:

This information only exists when the wav (clip) is in the project.

The problem is when, as I described, the file disappears from the project.

My theory is, the clip properties meta data including start time is in the individual clip files not the project file. But I've never needed to test or prove it. If so the clips know where they belong on the time line. 

[Milton Sica]

11 hours ago, John Vere said:

Question? are the original audio tracks all there? As in there are tracks for the missing audio but they contain no data. Or are the complete tracks totally missing? 

If the tracks are still there but empty of data my approach would be to open the audio folder in the browser and using the audio file track names drag them into a lane for that track. Use as many lanes as needed.  I would guess that using the numbers assigned  and the time stamp as shown in my screen shot would tell me what order they were originally in. Then soloing each lane along with the rest of the music to slowly figure out were they belong in time. 

Thanks a lot for the feedback.
Yes ! The wavs are all there intact.
There is a sequence of takes and the modification date/time is a step towards recovery.
I can do this on tracks that start from team 0:00:00.
The problem is in inserting those WAVs from several outlets.

[Milton Sica]

7 hours ago, Bill Phillips said:

My theory is, the clip properties meta data including start time is in the individual clip files not the project file. But I've never needed to test or prove it. If so the clips know where they belong on the time line. 

Thanks a lot for the feedback.

It is a theory to be tested.

I've done several tests to reinsert the files. By his theory there would be an identification by the DAW where they should be inserted and it would put each WAV in "its place".

Unfortunately I didn't get that result.

When multiple files are imported, as many new tracks are created as there are files.

When importing WAVs one by one in sequence, the DAW appends them to the end of each one without retrieving any reference to the timestamp at which it would be inserted.

As a result, this information is only available in the project file.

Therefore, if the project has this information that is used to reinsert or reference the files at their correct times, it would be very good to be able to generate a listing with these settings.

@msmcleod

What do you think about this ?

[msmcleod]

To be honest, I'm sceptical about relying on such information in this particular use-case.  

The fact that Cakewalk is saying that the files are missing even though they're not, would indicate the part of project that stores information about the clips has been corrupted, so there's a very good chance you couldn't rely on any other clip information as this may well be corrupted too.

A better question would be how it got corrupted in the first place.  Although it's possible it could be a Cakewalk bug, I suspect it's more likely to be a plugin overwriting memory it shouldn't be - else we'd be seeing reports of this all the time. 

If you want a bullet-proof backup of your audio files, maybe consider exporting the clips as broadcast waves using the Export Dialog, and using a filename such as

{projectname}-{tracknumber}-{laneindex}-{clipindex}-{trackname}-{clipname}

  It should then be easier to drag these back into the project if necessary.

[Milton Sica]

7 hours ago, msmcleod said:

To be honest, I'm sceptical about relying on such information in this particular use-case.  

The fact that Cakewalk is saying that the files are missing even though they're not, would indicate the part of project that stores information about the clips has been corrupted, so there's a very good chance you couldn't rely on any other clip information as this may well be corrupted too.

A better question would be how it got corrupted in the first place.  Although it's possible it could be a Cakewalk bug, I suspect it's more likely to be a plugin overwriting memory it shouldn't be - else we'd be seeing reports of this all the time. 

If you want a bullet-proof backup of your audio files, maybe consider exporting the clips as broadcast waves using the Export Dialog, and using a filename such as

{projectname}-{tracknumber}-{laneindex}-{clipindex}-{trackname}-{clipname}

  It should then be easier to drag these back into the project if necessary.

Thank you for your help.
I understand that if there was this loss of references, the project itself would not have them in an intelligible listing of these references.

Do you find it very difficult for the DAW to provide an intelligible listing of the insert time references for each wav?

I ask why I have the configuration for generating project versioning.

If the DAW had this listing in some of the saved versions, this information could be retrieved more easily.

[David Baay]

11 hours ago, Bill Phillips said:

My theory is, the clip properties meta data including start time is in the individual clip files not the project file.

There is no such thing as a "clip file".  An audio clip is a virtual object defined in the program that references an audio file on disk. Everything about that clip other than the raw sample content and some basic metadata that are part of the .WAV file definition is stored in the project file as an object property - name, start time, length, clip automation, fades, transient markers, etc. Two completely different projects can reference the same audio file in the same location on disk and have it start at different times in the project and have different non-destructive edits applied to it. In fact, this is exactly what happens when you save new versions of the same project in the same project folder with evolving edits over time. Nothing is written to audio files until you bounce and then a new file is written rather than overwriting the original.

[John Vere]

On 4/30/2022 at 9:41 AM, Milton Sica said:

This week I had a problem in one of my projects. I don't know how, but all the audios (WAV) were excluded from the project.

The above statement doesn't really explain what you are facing .  It could imply a few different scenarios. 

I realize there is possibly a small language barrier here so I have a few questions I need answered clearly so I actually know what has happened.  

I asked you this question earlier. 

22 hours ago, John Vere said:

Question? are the original audio tracks all there? As in there are tracks for the missing audio but they contain no data. Or are the complete tracks totally missing? 

You answered but you might not have understood the question. 

10 hours ago, Milton Sica said:

Yes ! The wavs are all there intact.

I think what you meant was the audio is still in the folder which we understand as you have stated this. 

But if you read my question you'll see I wanted to actually know what you where seeing when you open the project.  

Therefore- are  you saying that when you opened a project the project opened and all the audio tracks and the audio clips were missing,  

Or all the tracks were there but just the audio was missing?  ( see track #4 below) 

Or you tried to open a project and a received a warning that there were missing audio files and the project opened but the audio tracks are all blank?  

By Audio tracks I am asking are there tracks like in the screen shot 1,2 & 3 have audio data, #4 does not have data. 

 

FYI saving versions of a project does not make back ups of the audio. It is just a new CWP data container  with different information as explained nicely by @David Baay     

Proper back ups require using "Save As" with the "copy all Audio with projects" checked and then save to a different location. 

A good way to loose audio from a project would be to use "Save as"  and NOT check that box. It will make a new copy of the project but the audio I do believe stays in the original folder. Move something later on and the project looses the audio. 

[Will.]

On 5/1/2022 at 12:43 AM, John Vere said:

The scary mess found in an audio folder is one reason I have taken to exporting all my broken up audio tracks as stems and then bring them back in as one whole track 

Why don't you do this inside the DAW itself? It wil cost you less time. 

[Milton Sica]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

The above statement doesn't really explain what you are facing .  It could imply a few different scenarios. 

But if you read my question you'll see I wanted to actually know what you where seeing when you open the project.  

 

Thank you for your help.
I answer your question.

1) WAV files with data that should be on the respective tracks in the project are not present at their place/time.
2) WAV files are in the AUDIO folder.

[John Vere]

14 hours ago, Will. said:

Why don't you do this inside the DAW itself? It wil cost you less time. 

Because bouncing creates a new track. I want to bring them back and place them in the tracks they came from so there’s no change to the signal path effects and all that stuff. As always there’s more than one way to do the same things in Cakewalk 

The OP still didn’t answer my questions. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by John Vere

[Will.]

On 5/2/2022 at 3:16 AM, John Vere said:

Because bouncing creates a new track. 

No, not the bounce to track feature. 

If you drag the first file out to the beginning and the last file out to the end of the project - on that track. Then all you do is a normal bounce to link it as one whole clip. 

Once you done with this: you save this version of project as "{Name} whole tracks" or something. I just save this copy as "Name" {Mixed Ready.} 

I think you can delete the old files in the new saved project folder and resave it to only have these files in the project folder. I've done it before years ago before i had any clients with SONAR LE - I just need to verify this. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Will.
Typo's