Latest MMcL MackieControl.dll available with HUI Support

[Marco Marujo]

@Chuck E Baby
Hi. Of course you can use D8b with cakewalk. I use it everyday with azslow controller with a hui preset  specific for D8b. You can download it on azslow fórum . Search for a post by musicrazy (it’s me)  . Alexey it’s a super helpfull guy .  All the functions are working and some more like prochannel eq on faders. Cheers. 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Marco Marujo

[azslow3]

7 hours ago, chris.r said:

A voice from heaven ... Thanks Alexey, apparently AzController is much more than I thought and that's a good thing. I'll take a close look once I buy the iCon.

For the moment I have just one quick question. Without going into detail, since Platform M+ doesn't have a dedicated button for it - is it possible to assign one of the available buttons and create a custom function for it that will let icon enter a plugin control mode where I can use it's faders, knobs and buttons to control fx bin and prochannel plugins? (Synths in synth rack no possible from what I've learned already.) Guess that's all I need beside basic mixing functions. Presumably the answer is yes (perhaps even possible with Mark's mackie control plugin, idk). I've tried to download the manual for AzControl from the website but the link didn't work.

Feedback you mean the display with channel names and control values etc? Like this https://iconproaudio.com/ic_product/platform-d2/

After reading post from Marco about D8b, I have just googled... There is a preset for Platform M+ http://www.azslow.com/index.php?topic=386.0

"ACT" (Dynamic Mapping) mode allows control plug-ins (including synth and ProChannel). I do not see controls to select the plug-in, you will need to do this by mouse or extend the preset with selection controls. I have no idea how good the preset is working,  Hermu has made the preset without me ?

In the comments he writes D2 shows something.  So yes, that is possible.

[msmcleod]

@Tortoise Media Prods - I did some more testing with HUI mode over the weekend, this time using the Mackie MCU in HUI mode (I figured this would be more true to the original HUI than the other emulations).

Using the new heartbeat setting, I found no issues using HUI mode. But it did occur to me this may be down to my refresh frequency settings.

Can you confirm what your Control Surface refresh frequency is? Mine is set to 75ms:

 

With this setting a heartbeat will be sent to the HUI every 750ms or so, which is close to Pro Tool's setting of every 800ms. 

Also, can you check you've also got no tracks sending MIDI data to the MIDI device you're using for your HUI?

I made this mistake over the weekend, and wasted about 3 hours trying to work out why fader #1 was being reset on playback... only to find there was a track trying to play a piano part on it!

Finally, check your MIDI prepare buffer settings. The HUI is very chatty over MIDI, so it could be that data is being lost due to the prepare buffer being too slow.

Try setting your MIDI prepare buffer to 750:

[chuckebaby]

10 hours ago, Marco Marujo said:

@Chuck E Baby
Hi. Of course you can use D8b with cakewalk. I use it everyday with azslow controller with a hui preset  specific for D8b. You can download it on azslow fórum . Search for a post by musicrazy (it’s me)  . Alexey it’s a super helpfull guy .  All the functions are working and some more like prochannel eq on faders. Cheers. 

I need to find a ProBox or dbBridge first. Mark gave me some great ideas on how to build one. I just have no idea where to begin as I need to brush up on the parts list, exc.

[azslow3]

4 hours ago, msmcleod said:

With this setting a heartbeat will be sent to the HUI every 750ms or so, which is close to Pro Tool's setting of every 800ms.

...

Try setting your MIDI prepare buffer to 750:

You send the heartbeat (PingHuiIfRequired) from  RefreshSurface only. Bad idea... Refresh Surface is not called when some  CW dialogs are open (till they are closed), can happened some other GUI elements prevent updates as well.

 

MIDI prepare buffer "magic size" is the time based length of DX plug-ins playback window. I doubt it is used for anything related to the number of queued MIDI messages. But Noel can correct me, that is just a guess (in the part it is not used for something else...).

[u-man]

Hi msmcleod :)

I own a C4 and nothing else. I am interested in how to address the four displays it have.

Also i would like to know, if the MCU protocol can handle a C4 alone and if it provides the protocol automatically or does the C4 needs further implementation. I mean, if you have the hardware MCU working, does it need more code/xml whatever, to get a C4 working?

To my understanding, it would need only a sysex-handshaking, but nothing more. Correct me, if i am wrong with this.

It would help me a lot.

[msmcleod]

17 minutes ago, u-man said:

Hi msmcleod

I own a C4 and nothing else. I am interested in how to address the four displays it have.

Also i would like to know, if the MCU protocol can handle a C4 alone and if it provides the protocol automatically or does the C4 needs further implementation. I mean, if you have the hardware MCU working, does it need more code/xml whatever, to get a C4 working?

To my understanding, it would need only a sysex-handshaking, but nothing more. Correct me, if i am wrong with this.

It would help me a lot.

I'm pretty sure this is ok, but I'd have to try it out.

All of my changes are now in Cakewalk's standard MackieControl control surfaces, so just add "Mackie Control C4" as your control surface within Preferences->Midi->Control Surfaces.

Technically, you don't need to edit the MackieControl.ini as it will present each parameter on the C4 in the order they're defined in each plugin. However, you probably want to download my C4Mapper tool to arrange them into a more sensible order and/or edit the parameter names:  http://msmcleod.co.uk/cakewalk/C4Mapper.zip

You need to run this as admin for it to update MackieControl.ini

Note that the plugin parameters are taken from %APPDATA%\Cakewalk\ACT Data\genericpluginparams.xml , which is only populated for each plugin when:

• You've added a control surface defined
• You've opened that plugin with a control surface defined

So once you've added your C4, you may have to go through adding your plugins to an audio track for it to populate genericpluginparams.xml.  Don't do too many plugins at once, and restart Cakewalk regularly during this process  (genericpluginparams.xml gets written when Cakewalk closes).

Holding down the Track button on the C4 will give you access to the menu, from which you can choose what to edit (e.g. track parameters, Eq, dynamics, synth rack etc).

[u-man]

First, many thx for answering that fast. Great.

i rather need the technical infos on the process how a C4 is working under MCU protocol and how to address the displays.

So my first questions, are really just that. Would a DAW developer need to do much work for a C4, if it already supports Mackie Control?

So again, does the MCU protocol have everything/provide everything, to make a C4 working? To my understanding, it is enough that the MCU protocol sees the C4.

To be honest with you, i am a Cubase user?. Steinberg does not offer tools for users that own a C4. The have a Mackie Control component, but no C4. I wonder why and why it is not working at all?

I might start thinking about, to leave the Cubase DAW, after 20years using it. I am really dissappointed that they do not listen to their customers and that we are still limited till today, with some BS they call Generic Remote, which is not working properly.

[msmcleod]

2 hours ago, u-man said:

First, many thx for answering that fast. Great.

i rather need the technical infos on the process how a C4 is working under MCU protocol and how to address the displays.

So my first questions, are really just that. Would a DAW developer need to do much work for a C4, if it already supports Mackie Control?

So again, does the MCU protocol have everything/provide everything, to make a C4 working? To my understanding, it is enough that the MCU protocol sees the C4.

To be honest with you, i am a Cubase user?. Steinberg does not offer tools for users that own a C4. The have a Mackie Control component, but no C4. I wonder why and why it is not working at all?

I might start thinking about, to leave the Cubase DAW, after 20years using it. I am really dissappointed that they do not listen to their customers and that we are still limited till today, with some BS they call Generic Remote, which is not working properly.

From what I remember, the C4 protocol is similar to the MCU protocol, but obviously different as it's a different device with different buttons, rotaries etc.

Also,  IIRC the C4 is pretty dumb - in other words the UI and behaviour is provided by the DAW integration and not internal to the C4.

You should be able to get the technical docs from Mackie, but how you'd go about interfacing that with Cubase is another matter.
 

[u-man]

OK, regarding the assignment of the (unassigned) buttons, functions etc., that is something i understand, but does this apply to the MCU protocol too? I mean the protocol is something like a black box that Mackie provides to developers and they just make a connection between host and protocol. Once the DAW developers provide what they want to expose to the MCU protocol, the basic work should be done. Everything else would be to write components (button assignment, f-keys etc.) for the various hardware. I see the protocol as a middleman-software between host and hardware.  All DAW controllers with feedback, are "passive" controllers and are initially (after powering on) brainless hardware. You can barely use the hardware if you have no MCU protocol.

So do developers need some extra work to address the displays of a C4? I would say no, because the displays just extend the pages from a Mackie Control, where you otherwise would need to scroll through and if you use a C4 alone, it should at least just display the pages (from the MCU protocol).

I can use the Mackie Control component of Cubase and use that on a C4. It begins magically working, i can access various things like volume, pan etc. , it even has feedback on encoders, but it misses the display , they are on but without a text. This is obvious, as the component was meant for a Mackie Control and not a C4.
This "hack" can only be done, if i create a successfull sysex handshake before. In example simply start the Commander software and after that start Cubase. The Commander software does the handshake and Cubase provides the MCU protocol (to program the C4 hardware).

Edited May 6, 2020 by u-man
correction

[Pollux]

Hi U-Man,

MCU and C4 protocols use MIDI to send and receive information. AFAIK there is no Mackie SDK, but rather a documentation set about which button / fader / encoder uses which MIDI CC. Faders use 10 bit for a higher resolution than the 127 values of the standard CC. Both protocols are different. The C4 had very little DAW support (only Cakewalk, Logic and Tracktion) and was discontinued years ago.

The displays are controlled sending binary information encapsulated within the MIDI messages, and it's different between the MCU and the C4, which is why you don't see anything when you set it as an MCU.

If you want to understand how they work under the hood in Cakewalk, you can check https://github.com/Cakewalk/Cakewalk-Control-Surface-SDK

As for using only a C4 without an MCU, yes, this is possible. You can control track levels, pans, plugins and most of the button functions the MCU has. The cakewalk help file is pretty comprehensive about using the C4 (attached).

 

Hope this helps!

MackieControl.chm

[u-man]

Again many, many thanks. You both showed me valuable infos, that i searched a week, without a finding.

I am a little shocked and suprised that Mackie seriously did not provide anything else, than just the info and midi-implentation of the Logic Manual 7.2, where it is described. That is pretty hard. So every DAW-developer needed to find out ways, how to provide the (display)-readouts from the DAW to the hardware? In fact, there was no protocol to start with? Phew, i think that this is a lot of work then. Now i understand, why a C4 is not supported in Cubase.

Reason (Propellerhead) supported the C4 too, Reaper has some and with MAX you can get it working in Ableton. So i think that the C4 is missing only one major software and that is Cubase IMHO. Yes, the EoL of a C4 was years ago and that is why i do not understand, why there is not more to know about this hardware. I am suprised and happy, that you go another route and leave it open and SDK, for other people. Nice gesture and absolutely the right spirit.

Quote

The displays are controlled sending binary information encapsulated within the MIDI messages, and it's different between the MCU and the C4, which is why you don't see anything when you set it as an MCU.

Is this documented in Github somewhere?

What will happen in Cakewalk if you start to use the Commander software (from Mackie) with Cakewalk together. Lets say i use 2 rows of encoders with my hardware-synths and two rows of encoders with Cakewalk. Is that possible? In Logic you could not really use that mode. It was either this or MCU protocol, but not both AFAIK.
That would be the best use for the Split-Zones of a C4, but i do not know, if a C4 really does this.

Since it seems, you both know a lot about this topic. How much time would you need, to create the same support in Cubase and lets assume, you could at least look into the protocol that Steinberg already did for Mackie control. I know that this depends on lot of things, but some approximation would be nice, like best case and worst case (in days or weeks). I am at a point, where i would pay a developer for that task.

I hope i do not offend you with such questions and offerings, but  from my POV, i am just a user who really love this controller. It was my dream a decade ago, to own one.
Yet, i have one and can only use it, in a standalone mode (via a virtual midi-cable and the Commander Software) with Cubase. Only downsides, i have no feedback and no automatic readouts and level-meters from the protocol. So each VST needs painfull labeling of each parameter-names. A process that would normally be automated and would only be needed to do it manually for your real studio-hardware.

In a ideal world, the only thing that would be needed for us users, would be the Commander Software (with virtual Midi-In for feedback) plus the readouts of the protocol.
The protocol itself could be some kind of plugin, so that each DAW has their own plugin to provide the readouts. That would be really UNIVERSAL, but Mackie does not seemed to understand that... sadly.

The only thing i know about the Commander Software is, that it is written with JUCE, but i do not think that this info really helps and i assume you still can not look inside this program, to learn how it works.

Do i need something special with the .chm file? I can open it and have the index/table contents, but sadly nothing else. The pages are empty .

Thx alot and stay healthy

Edited May 7, 2020 by u-man

[msmcleod]

@u-man - I was going to suggest you tried using the C4 with the Commander Software, but I see this what you're already doing.

Unless Steinberg implement something themselves (unlikely since the C4 is EoL), this is the only thing you really can do, unless you write something that emulates some other protocol such as the Akai Advance/VIP or Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol protocols.
 

[u-man]

You are right, that this is the only thing i can do right now as a normal user. I can tweak some special functions out of Midi Translator Pro and can assign functions, i would not have under "normal" conditions. So i am very close already. Sadly this kind of workaround does not allow bi-directional editing, because the Commander software has only Midi-Out and no Midi-In (do not mix that with the general midi-settings for a C4). I am to dumb to get that working and to have proper automation feedback.

But like i said, i have ambitions (maybe to high, but sure worth) and would even pay development.
If you could look into the Steinberg MCU protocol, could you develop that?

[msmcleod]

18 minutes ago, u-man said:

You are right, that this is the only thing i can do right now as a normal user. I can tweak some special functions out of Midi Translator Pro and can assign functions, i would not have under "normal" conditions. So i am very close already. Sadly this kind of workaround does not allow bi-directional editing, because the Commander software has only Midi-Out and no Midi-In (do not mix that with the general midi-settings for a C4). I am to dumb to get that working and to have proper automation feedback.

But like i said, i have ambitions (maybe to high, but sure worth) and would even pay development.
If you could look into the Steinberg MCU protocol, could you develop that?

This would need access to Cubase's internal code for dealing with the MCU, which I don't have - and even if I did, it would likely be a conflict of interest at least for me!

The best you could hope for with the MCU route would be to get something that pretended it was an MCU, but even then you'd be limited to the first 8 vpots.
 

[u-man]

38 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

This would need access to Cubase's internal code for dealing with the MCU, which I don't have - and even if I did, it would likely be a conflict of interest at least for me!

The best you could hope for with the MCU route would be to get something that pretended it was an MCU, but even then you'd be limited to the first 8 vpots.
 

Quite understandable . I tried that experiment already, but could not get the displays to work. I would be even fine with one display, enough for Quick Controls. I could use the remaining Vpots for my hardware synths.

The Generic Remote thing in Cubase is very limited. In fact, i can not even get the encoders working properly. There are only to options for encoders: absolute and relative. In relative mode, the encoders are working properly CW, but jumps when rotating CCW. I did not find anything, to get them work in both directions.
But this is a essential thing, to get the encoders properly working, that is why i did not invest more time with it. I really do not understand Steinberg (as they wrote the protocol), why we as users on the other side, do not have a working option for the encoders, if we use the Generic Remote functions . It is a pity really.

Thx for all the info so far
 

[Robert Levenson]

Thanks for the great work on HUI support. I’m using an MCU plus two XT units with the latest version of Cakewalk and your software installed.  The MCU works fine in HUI mode but I’ve been unable to get the XTs to work (no response from daw to slider movement on channel buttons, no writing to scribble strips). The only mode selection I see is for the MCU. Is there something else that needs to be done to have the XTs supported in HUI mode.

[msmcleod]

3 hours ago, Robert Levenson said:

Thanks for the great work on HUI support. I’m using an MCU plus two XT units with the latest version of Cakewalk and your software installed.  The MCU works fine in HUI mode but I’ve been unable to get the XTs to work (no response from daw to slider movement on channel buttons, no writing to scribble strips). The only mode selection I see is for the MCU. Is there something else that needs to be done to have the XTs supported in HUI mode.

There were no XT's for the HUI - it was a stand alone 8 track device. You can't use XT's when the main MCU is working in HUI mode.

If you've got a real MCU, then run it in MCU mode.

[Robert Levenson]

Thanks for getting back to me. I go back and forth between Pro Tools and Sonar/Cakewalk and of course Pro Tools only supports the HUI mode.  So I was hoping to not have to switch modes on the MCU/XTs  all the time (but I'll bite the bullet!).  

[spiffo]

Sorry to re-open an old thread but I've recently replaced the duff display in my MCU Pro and after playing with it for a while I notice that pressing the Select Buttons does not highlight the Track in Cakewalk, which is a problem.

It seems that msmcleod's  enhanced .dll might fix this but unfortunately this link appears broken?

http://msmcleod.co.uk/cakewalk/MMcLMackieControlSetup.zip

Is there anywhere else to find it?