Cakewalk, VSTs and Custom Pitches/Tuning, Indian Music

[Sridhar Raghavan]

All

I am starting this topic after a search for this topic in the forum. There are some topics that touch on this, but they are more or less tangential for my understanding needs. 

I do have keyboards [Technics KN1400, Korg PA600]  which support many tuning systems: notably Pythagorean,  Custom Pitches. I have been using it for a long time.  GeoShred on iPad, Synth One are recent ones I use,  which have done a fantastic job with world scale and flexible pitches/frequencies.  If you direct your midi out to these target synths, the Music is played with whatever tuning you have set there. 

For Indian and other World Music -- it is extremely important, specially for me, to play/hear music in Natural (a term to distinguish) rather than in  Tempered pitches.  I can share more thoughts on the Pros/Cons of these , but will keep out of scope of this topic. 

I do have, and I am familiar with VSTs from DSK, Native Instruments and Swar Systems  and to the extent to which they support custom pitches for Indian/World Music.  We could have more discussion on those in their intersection with Cakewalk on separate threads. 

Let me quickly clarify the term "Custom Pitches".  In simple terms, it means specifying adjustments in cents for each of the 12 notes in a Tempered Scale.  I am deliberately avoiding the use of the term "Scale" as it is often used in the way of presence/absence of notes, with no implications to Pitch Frequencies, a major issue for me.  In Indian Music, Scale includes Pitches as well as Ascending/Descending Swaras/Notes and much more. 

My main quest is:

a) What VSTs that come with Cake Walk (and or free ones which can be downloaded and added to the environment)  support custom pitches using any mechanisms - Scala files, would be ideal.  

b) To what extent Cakewalk is "Custom Pitches Aware" in any/broad sense ?  This is a general question which I will deliberately leave it fuzzy,  to allow/permit free/full interpretation.  I would also not know what all things to ask here.  In the context of Keyboards, such a question would include things such as:  do custom Pitches propagate to Styles/Accompaniments, Transposes, Dum Kits etc., are they saved and remembered when reloaded etc.

Thanks in advance and look forward to a good compilation of thoughts.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Sridhar Raghavan
Updated for Typos etc.

[lapasoa]

I think is best for you to  ask indian musicians that use keyboard and synths for their music , expecially film scoring music composers.

[Colin Nicholls]

@Sridhar Raghavan, Dimension Pro supports scala files but it may be difficult to find. It used to be bundled with SONAR Professional, and although I think BandLab have the I.P. for Dim Pro, its future is uncertain. 

Quote

Microtuning and Alternate tuning with Scala file support — Dimension Pro can now load native Scala .scl microtuning files. Scala is a powerful freeware software tool for experimentation with musical tunings, such as just intonation scales, equal and historical temperaments, microtonal and macrotonal scales, and non-Western scales. Dimension Pro allows each element in a program to use a specific microtuning definition, so multiple microtuning sets can be used in a single patch.

This list might be useful to you:  https://en.xen.wiki/w/List_of_microtonal_software_plugins

I don't think Cakewalk itself has any specific support for non-western scales. SwarShala looks intriguing but I'm sure you're familiar with that. (Note: I'm not knowledgeable about it, just curious).

[user 905133]

On 2/13/2022 at 12:31 PM, Sridhar Raghavan said:

I do have keyboards . . . which support many tuning systems . . . .   If you direct your midi out to these target synths, the Music is played with whatever tuning you have set there. 

I have hardware sound modules that are similar.  In addition to built-in tunings they can use midi commands to sent/receive user defined tunings (parameters for 128 midi notes from 0 to 127). The Scala program can be used to create tuning files so users don't have to program each note from the front panel manually.

Also, I have seen a number of soft synths that use Scala files which allow users to use all sorts of scales, not limited to 12 tones in an octave.  

On 2/13/2022 at 12:31 PM, Sridhar Raghavan said:

For Indian and other World Music -- it is extremely important, specially for me, to play/hear music in Natural (a term to distinguish) rather than in  Tempered pitches . . . .  In simple terms, it means specifying adjustments in cents for each of the 12 notes in a Tempered Scale. 

I am not familiar with the note patterns [I call then scales]  you need, but we are talking about the same thing.

On 2/13/2022 at 12:31 PM, Sridhar Raghavan said:

My main quest is:

a) What VSTs that come with Cake Walk (and or free ones which can be downloaded and added to the environment)  support custom pitches using any mechanisms - Scala files, would be ideal.  

b) To what extent Cakewalk is "Custom Pitches Aware" in any/broad sense ?  This is a general question which I will deliberately leave it fuzzy,  to allow/permit free/full interpretation.  I would also not know what all things to ask here.  In the context of Keyboards, such a question would include things such as:  do custom Pitches propagate to Styles/Accompaniments, Transposes, Dum Kits etc., are they saved and remembered when reloaded etc.

(a) I haven't looked at the link Colin posted in a while, but as best as I recall, that is a good start.  I think Scala also has a list.

(b) I don't know the answer, but I am curious as to what "Custom Pitch Awareness" means for you.  For example, in Scale View I know we can place notes on staffs with different clefs and some markings (e.g., sharp, natural, flat) but beyond that I haven't seen any way to notate note/frequency variations.

Quote

Do custom Pitches propagate to Styles/Accompaniments, Transposes, Dum Kits etc., are they saved and remembered when reloaded etc.

Not 100% what this means to you.*  In terms of MIDI and custom tunings/pitches/scales, from what I have seen, Cakewalk uses MIDI note numbers (0 to 127). So if you have hardware or software that redefines pitches/frequencies (for example, a tuning map for base note, +/- coarse tuning, and +/- fine tuning), you can think of Cakewalk as being totally unaware.  It doesn't care what pitches you want for MIDI notes 0 -127.  It is up to your synth to play the pitch you have defined.

Hope this helps.

PS: (1) As I go pull out my soft synths, I will look to see if they support Scala files.  (2) What Scala files do you use for the kind of music you do?

*ADDENDUM:  I see in a later post one of your interests is in the Cakewalk Scale Manager.  Thanks for the clarification (and the pdf).

BTW: Based on the link Colin posted, I saw some Full Bucket synths I did not have. (I have a good opinion of the ones I do have.) Not sure if you want vintage synths, but  the FB3300 has 3 "Blocks" each of which has 11 knobs to tune the named pitches.  There are built-in tunings as well as a mechanism to load and save *.scl files.  No mechanism that I can see for switching scales based on factors such as whether a melodic line is ascending or descending.  Thanks for raising the question!! 

Edited February 14, 2022 by User 905133
(3) To add a BTW and a Thanks; (2) To add an addendum; (1) To add a P.S.

[Sridhar Raghavan]

Colin Thanks for your note and the pointer to Dim Pro.

I went through the manual(s) and also explored with the UI, and can confirm what you said.

Cakewalk lives only in Equal-Tempered Pitches/Notes and, Scales means only presence and absence of notes, and that too without any further distinctions about Ascending and Descending.  Therefore, the VSTs have to support those Alternate Pitches.  Would not fault this approach, though I would have loved to see deliberate conscious support. 

So this just brings to the fore my need to locate [free, affordable] VSTs/Plugin that can augment Cakewalk for Alternate Tunings. 

Cakewalk Scale Manager entries are a bit misleading, with Title likes Exotic Scales, Hindu I, Hindu II, Indian I, Indian II etc. all of which are nothing but presence/absence of notes, and in this regard no different from any other scales (except for the names). Pitches do not play a part.

I am attaching a PDF in the way of introduction.

I will respond to lapasoa and User 905133, as well as to other points in the above replies, separately and soon.

 

 

SriIndianScales.pdf

[Will.]

3 hours ago, lapasoa said:

I think is best for you to  ask indian musicians that use keyboard and synths for their music , expecially film scoring music composers.

I believe the member is indian. 

[user 905133]

1 hour ago, Sridhar Raghavan said:

Cakewalk lives . . . without any further distinctions about Ascending and Descending.  Therefore, the VSTs have to support those Alternate Pitches.  Would not fault this approach, though I would have loved to see deliberate conscious support. 

So this just brings to the fore my need to locate [free, affordable] VSTs/Plugin that can augment Cakewalk for Alternate Tunings. 

This sounds a little bit like the melodic minor concept taught in some music theory classes.  I know nothing about how soft synths can be used to switch tunings on the fly (through a key switching method, maybe?), but it sounds interesting. Maybe others here know.  Thanks for clarifying.

[Sridhar Raghavan]

User 905133

You should look ay Synth One on iPad (if you happen to have one) and how it supports Scala and Tunings (not limited to 12 notes to an octave). Very innovative. 

To your question about switching scales, usually it will be via unused controller and/or RPN/NRPN or command Sequences. On both my keyboards, I can do them only via direct UI and not via MIDI.   This is not a technical issue, they just decided it was not a priority.  But they do provide so many other vendor-specific MIDI commands for selecting style, pads, picking variations, fills, fade-ins. fade-outs etc....  I may open a topic on this if it is not clear to me,  how to compose/send those.

 I do have the Scale Editor and plenty of Scala files -- have used them with Ableton or Close in the past, and now usable on Synth One.  They are useful as a good documentation for various Tunings/Scales. 

[Sridhar Raghavan]

On 2/14/2022 at 10:39 AM, lapasoa said:

I think is best for you to  ask indian musicians that use keyboard and synths for their music , expecially film scoring music composers.

lapasoa

Good thought but more or less redundant to my context. As I have been considerably soaked in the context for general directions from others. I would add the following:

Classical Indian Musicians -- YES. But keyboards and Synths are No-No in that world  for many reasons. North Indian musicians use Harmoniums, but serious one use custom tuned ones.  It was banned for use for a few decades because they were not pure. In South Indian Music, Harmoniums are never used as they just cannot produce the needed musical/microtonal patterns.

Film Music Composers of Previous Generations - YES. They were outstanding maestros in Indian, Western and their Fusion. Wish they were alive and I had personal connections. 

Current Generation Music Composers -  I hesitate to make any generalized statements.  I am sure they are using very Expensive Technologies meant for high-end Professionals. I would love get my hands on those for trying/discovering.  But they as a source of knowledge about Tuning/Music etc.. I may not lose much passing on....

Edited February 21, 2022 by Sridhar Raghavan
typos, formatting

[Sridhar Raghavan]

Here is a link to Scala Downloads page of HUYGENS-FOKKER.org

https://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/downloads.html

I felt that I should post the link,  rather than simply share the files I downloaded from there 2-3 years ago.

There is plenty of information and assets there, for your interest.

See the Scala Archive at the end of the page to download the SCALES.ZIP. 
That contains many scale definitions, especially for Indian Tuning expressed as ratios (in my PDF I listed them as adjustment in cents to Equal Temperament Pitches)

 

 

[bvideo]

Your topic made me think about what Cakewalk can do to help with scales. Tuning has been pretty well covered.

The "problem" with scales is that in Cakewalk note names are represented by the 12-tone names, e.g. A, A#, etc. However, Cakewalk has a thing called a "drum map" that lets you define a different mapping of names to MIDI note numbers. In the general case, you can configure each note number with a name and an output port/synth and separate output note number. A MIDI track can be assigned to a drum map instead of a synth. The PRV for that track then labels keys with the names you configured instead of the usual A, A# etc.  I don't think this was particularly intended to use for alternate scales, but maybe you can find a way to use it.

[scook]

9 minutes ago, bvideo said:

The "problem" with scales is that in Cakewalk note names are represented by the 12-tone names, e.g. A, A#, etc. However, Cakewalk has a thing called a "drum map" that lets you define a different mapping of names to MIDI note numbers. In the general case, you can configure each note number with a name and an output port/synth and separate output note number. A MIDI track can be assigned to a drum map instead of a synth. The PRV for that track then labels keys with the names you configured instead of the usual A, A# etc.  I don't think this was particularly intended to use for alternate scales, but maybe you can find a way to use it.

There is no need to use a drum map for alternate note labels.

The keyboard left of the notes pane in the PRV may be replaced with alternate note names from instrument definitions.

[bvideo]

9 hours ago, scook said:

There is no need to use a drum map for alternate note labels.

The keyboard left of the notes pane in the PRV may be replaced with alternate note names from instrument definitions.

Yes, that should be simpler.

[Sridhar Raghavan]

bvideo

I agree  - for just name mapping, which is actually quite important for Drums, ins definitions would be sufficient.  But if the same ins file can be used for generating drum maps (and possibly adding some more power and flexibility) it is better to go with drum maps (not sure what the cons are).  

But with percussion and drums, especially Indian, a given named note would require many strokes at the same time -- for example a specific note on the Left Side of the Drum and another on the Right hand side of the drum, Such composites strokes would have a simple Name, but generate multiple MIDI events. Drum Maps provide general mechanisms for doing these. I do use drum maps. I am not yet sure whether Cake Walk Drum Maps are capable of doing this - or one has to resort to Articulation Maps (whose design center in Cakewalk may or may not be suited for One-Logical-Key-Press -> Multiple-Physical-Midi-Events).

regards Sri