Nick Blanc Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 I'm just gonna pretend this topic didn't escalate. Craig N put me on to something. I did a benchmark test with a program he recommended. https://www.userbenchmark.com/UserRun/50103348 And it said I was throttling. I THOUGHT I turned everything to 100%. I did. But there was some dropdown I missed which still said I was saving energy. Here's the thing with Windows 11 (or me, the user). You can change energy profiles at different locations and they seem to not communicate. That, or I'm a bit of an idiot. And since I once wasted days/weeks of Focusrite support for audio dropouts while I had my Scarlett plugged into a USB hub which I forgot I did, I think I know the answer. Anyway, I changed it and my idle problem is entirely gone. CPU usage is waaaay down. I ran the test again and it sill says I'm throttling. https://www.userbenchmark.com/UserRun/50104211 ok..... So the situation is way better, but maybe it can be even betterererer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said: Show me 20 examples of top-tier professional composers who are NOT using any custom PC. The short answer is... you can't. The top composers in LA meet once a month. I don't wana step on toes here. I just want to point out, this is actually inaccurate. I can name you 40 that doesn't, but that's not the point. Both are correct in this topic. There's both Windows and Mac in the business. One less than the other one in Major Studios ("professionally.") You can perhaps argue this with the "Home Studio Guys." perhaps more windows than Mac users - who knows. ??♂️??♂️But Major Studio - it's definitely Mac every where. We forget theres 3 worlds in the industry. The industry standard. The dedicated Home Studio setup and. . . The bedroom setup. I Myself had to invest in a dang Mac because 75% of the projects I get are freaken Logic projects. It's ridiculous! The other 25 are split between PT and Ableton both on Windows obviously. Dont ask me why, I don't know, i just go with the flow and grow with it as long as I get paid! Extremely Important! It's not because windows are better than Mac. My Surface Pro out performs the Mac (which of course is my Studio machine now.) Its just that "STANDARD illness " the industry believes in. Its still a Kane and Abel story. But we don't need Noah now. Edited January 31, 2022 by Will_Kaydo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Roseberry Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 LOL! Have fun being a part of the "LA scene". If I were to name-drop, it would be an extensive list from ~30-years. Composers Rock-Stars Mix Engineers Mastering Engineers Label Executives I've had the pleasure of working with many great individuals (famous and not)... including the CTO from Cakewalk. If you're actually running Cakewalk By Bandlab, it was compiled on 10980xe based machine (that I built). ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Roseberry Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said: I don't wana step on toes here. I just want to point out, this is actually inaccurate. I can name you 40 that doesn't, but that's not the point. I'm not talking bedroom composers. I mean high level professional composers for TV/Film. Name those 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Roseberry Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said: I Myself had to invest in a dang Mac because 75% of the projects I get are freaken Logic projects. I have to buy Macs because we support clients running VE Pro "Slave" machines (connected to their Mac). I like some things about OSX (lean and networking is more straight forward). Can't stand the lack of internal expansion... and lack of speed (relative to what's otherwise available). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said: Name those 40. Gladly! Are you ready . . . ? F . O . R . T . Y! What are we now 12? ? No! I'm not gona entertain you on this. Edited January 31, 2022 by Will_Kaydo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_in_wales Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 @Jim: Why do you feel empowered to reframe the definition of professional so favorably narrow here given your original post of "Those who think most professionals are using Mac..." was in response to a clearly more general definition of professional? You've taken it from the original "professionals" to "top tier professionals" and now to "high level professional composers for TV/Film". You are railroading this discussion to suit your own agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said: I have to buy Macs because we support clients running VE Pro "Slave" machines (connected to their Mac). I like some things about OSX (lean and networking is more straight forward). Can't stand the lack of internal expansion... and lack of speed (relative to what's otherwise available). Lol. Yeah well. If it works for some, hey, it works. But, yeah, I had to invest in one, i can't complain (business wise) that's for sure. Edited January 31, 2022 by Will_Kaydo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Roseberry Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Paul_in_wales said: @Jim: Why do you feel empowered to reframe the definition of professional so favorably narrow here given your original post of "Those who think most professionals are using Mac..." was in response to a clearly more general definition of professional? You've taken it from the original "professionals" to "top tier professionals" and now to "high level professional composers for TV/Film". You are railroading this discussion to suit your own agenda. I'm not re-framing / railroading anything. I said that professional composers for TV/Film (meaning high level professionals) are almost all using custom PCs. That hasn't changed. Someone mentioned they could name 40 (TV/Film composers) who don't. I'm saying... name them. Edited January 31, 2022 by Jim Roseberry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Screed Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Hmmm the battle lines were drawn I use a pc because I am familiar with it If I knew the apple like I know the pc, I might very well go down that path I think it is more about content I made a movie, on a pc, with cakewalk, and adobe nobody cared, https://vimeo.com/241599733 I couldn't name anyone who is in Hollywood I can't even name an artist living in their sister's basement but I like to make things and I would express myself whether I had an apple, a pc, a pocket knife, or two functioning hands and a kumquat. If I only had a million $'s 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 5 hours ago, Jesse Screed said: If I only had a million $'s It's barely enough. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Blanc Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 On 1/31/2022 at 5:54 PM, Nick Blanc said: I'm just gonna pretend this topic didn't escalate. Craig N put me on to something. I did a benchmark test with a program he recommended. https://www.userbenchmark.com/UserRun/50103348 And it said I was throttling. I THOUGHT I turned everything to 100%. I did. But there was some dropdown I missed which still said I was saving energy. Here's the thing with Windows 11 (or me, the user). You can change energy profiles at different locations and they seem to not communicate. That, or I'm a bit of an idiot. And since I once wasted days/weeks of Focusrite support for audio dropouts while I had my Scarlett plugged into a USB hub which I forgot I did, I think I know the answer. Anyway, I changed it and my idle problem is entirely gone. CPU usage is waaaay down. I ran the test again and it sill says I'm throttling. https://www.userbenchmark.com/UserRun/50104211 ok..... So the situation is way better, but maybe it can be even betterererer. So I'm running 48k and 256ms latency, which is a good workable setup. Latency can be brought down on occasion when I need it. But this is absolutely fine. I feel confident now I can throw a lot at it for the coming years. Latest test with 75 Spire channels with an NI EQ and Ableton arpeggiator was running fine. When I switched to 100 tracks there was some mild crackle and 98% CPU load (on playback, idle = 3%). Changed the buffer size to 512 and everything was going well (at the edge I think, but still). But regarding something I see coming up: temperature running stable at around 65C at full load. It drops back to 40 when I stop playback. And I don't have the most expensive cooling system. Just a random (actually one of the cheaper) Noctua cooler which fitted this CPU architecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Smith Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) I think @Reid Rosefelt had some good thoughts on the subject which I believe kicked off the debate about what "creatives" use. If we are defining creatives as those who only work in the film and music industries, we still have to account for the eroding of the Mac base for those people over time due to Apple's pricing, performance comparisons and business practices. Sure we can debate Apple's pricing, but let's face it, I am not aware of large numbers of 'creatives' buying the lower end macs at 700.00 a pop. When we get into what those guys need the price goes up steeply. This is why a percentage of creatives in that part of the creative spectrum have indeed swung over to PC....and if your boss has a nice budget for computer replacement, heck it isn't their money, maybe they would just go buy the high end mac because that's what they want. Who really buys most of the computers for music ? What percentage of the total are those who are in the full time music and film industry? My hunch is the percentage is probably very small in comparison to the total number of computers sold for music. The mostly silent majority are likely independent artists, small studios and hobbyists. This is where PC is really winning has already won. I read a survey once that showed more Macs were in Europe than in North America. This may be true, I'm not sure but I wouldn't doubt it. " More Macs" doesn't mean more Macs than PCs, it simply means more Macs compared to North America. The average business, the average home owner who wants to do any sort of work that requires more than a small laptop or an ipad is vastly more apt to be using a PC. Most large institutions use PC with maybe a few macs scattered in the music or art departments. Almost ALL businesses use PC. I think it can be safely said PC's out number macs exponentially in the public sector. This is why Apple concentrated their business model on smaller devices such as iphones, ipads and laptops. The creative market has become a niche market for them. Any benefit had from the new architecture is probably trickle down. Apple knows there's real competition in markets dominated by PC. Although the move to their own chip development is helping to swing a few users to Apple, I believe it's probably too little too late for them to take that market, especially when Intel and AMD come out with their own similar competition. In tech there's always an answer to the competition and you can bet they have engineers developing an answer. Why would the silent majority PC user looking for a music computer make a jump to Mac when there are computers they already have familiarity with that will run the software they want to run? A small percentage may jump to one for novelty sake to try the Mac experience, The vast majority though, they are going to take the path of least resistance. A few small gains in Mac performance ( if they really exist in a real world test ) will probably not be enough to sway them away. I mean, if you told me I could run 153 tracks .vs 135 tracks between systems, however if system A is significantly more expensive than system B. Nah.......ain't happenin' especially if I can't be assured it won't be phased out. Edited March 18, 2022 by Tim Smith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bats brew Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 On 1/31/2022 at 11:49 AM, Will. said: Gladly! Are you ready . . . ? F . O . R . T . Y! What are we now 12? ? No! I'm not gona entertain you on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 Someone on the Image Line forums making out the M1 is then end all. This is from the head chief of Image Line. To be frank Apple has been consistently obsoleting software through their actions over the last 20 years, which are mainly about closing an already tight ecosystem further. For example. Their rush to release ARM devices has rendered all legacy (Intel only) VST plugins obsolete on the Apple Silicon platform. This has implications for forward compatibility of projects and the ability to share projects with Windows users who need to use VST equivalents to AU. They took the time to make an Intel - ARM process bridge for AU plugins, but don't care about VST as its not their platform and they don't sell VST format plugins. Additionally, every time Apple updates macOS they break software and some hardware too. They do this with the expectation that the industry will just fix their mess. When a developer doesn't the product is dead. In short, if anything you use is not under constant development bit-rot will set in much faster on macOS than Windows. 'll open with an observation. Desktop systems are more robust, easier to repair and upgrade than laptops. Yet I see people using laptops that never leave the desk they were unboxed on. People do not make rational decisions. My comments about Bit-Rot on macOS are not company policy. They are personal opinion and observation (corroborated by most developers I know who code audio applications for macOS. They are always chasing their tails making fixes caused by changes to the OS), having been involved in software development for over 20 years (and managing software development for 15). You don't have to like other peoples opinions. But understand they always have a reason for them. I am not a customer of Apple products. I manage a team that makes software that runs on them. I see what has to happen to keep that software working. I will hand Apple a job well done with the release of the Apple Sillicon ecosystem. They really did an amazing job with the Rosetta 2 system. Their Apple Silicon CPUs also have excellent performance per watt, making them easier to cool and so quiet out of the box. Nice. But a lot of code is heading for the dust heap as a result of this transition. Whether or not you care about that is if you use or rely on any of this code. But my personal opinion is well represented by the quote above. Company 'policy'? Well, philosophy is that we support the operating systems where the market / customers are. And for now that is macOS, Windows, Android and iOS. Regards Scott I love the comment about laptops never leaving the desk. If I were a laptop guy I'd be all over an M1 and Logic. Apple owes a lot to HP since they make nothing but craptops. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Smith Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 GO MAC, GO MAC.........G- never mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Roseberry Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 I'm certainly not an Apple fan... but I have a M1 Pro (to support VE Pro clients). It's nice for what it is... low power consumption and decent performance. When it comes to running audio or video projects, it's nowhere near performance of the i9-12900ks (5.5Ghz) or R9-5950x. Anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke. If you want a quick/easy performance comparison, run Cinebench (both single and multi-core). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane_B. Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 (edited) I just skimmed through this thread and have nothing to say IRT the actual topic because I'm one of the 'home studio' type guys. So I'll bow out of that part of it. But, I was a master service technician and supervisor for a fortune 500 company for 10 years that got bought out by and dissolved in to Ricoh. They are a massive copier and printer manufacturer. I knew I wanted nothing to do with Mac's when I ran in to having to install an $800 dollar circuit board containing a proprietary ROM chip in multifunction machines (Printer/Copier/Scanner/Fax machines) that activated Adobe True Type fonts for use with Mac. IOW, on top of the optional NIC, you had to install another TTF board. I can't tell you how many times salesmen would almost lose deals because they didn't know this and ended up giving that $800 ripoff, I mean, add-on, to customers and gave up their commission so the company wouldn't lose the sale. There's an old saying that goes, "The bold print giveth and the fine print taketh away.". That is oh so true in the Mac world. Edited May 1, 2022 by Shane_B. Fixed typo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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