Track template (VST instrument with multiple ouput channels) strange problem

[Ronny.G]

 Hi to all,

some time ago I had already posted a message in the thread related to update 2021.06 (since in that update some changes related to the handling of inputs/outputs had been made). I would like now however to report everything I found until now in a specific thread concerning the problem since it's now a problem that I encounter with any version (I tried until the recent 2021.11 U1).

I had tried to wait in case some update solved the strange bug that I find in the allocation of vst multi outputs channels once loaded any multi-out vst track profile saved previously as a "track template".

Unfortunately to date the problem is still present and is not easy to identify as I will describe later. It's incredibly annoying or better say it's a disaster. When there are many tracks I would say that it's at the limit of the impossible to use the track template function. If you decide to insert an additional multi-output VST it happens a disaster. This output assignment "shift" bug not only means you have to correct all the channels manually, but after loading the profile into the project this also causes numerous other conflicts in the outputs of the other VSTs that were previously working properly. There are VST instruments that make sounds on audio outputs of other tracks also, others that stop altogether, sometimes it also messes up the inputs. On the other hand, something is wrong and therefore probably creates problems a little everywhere on the project.

Like I said before the problem its a bit weird. I have spent many days trying to isolate it in a reproducible manner, but it's not so easy because it seems to be dependent on the PC where CbB is installed (and not reproducible in virtual machines). Very strange and really I don't even understand how this could be possible, but seems so. I tried everything to understand why it happens, but I couldn't figure it out. I also reinstalled from scratch the OS and CbB (of course, before I made an hard disk image). I have not installed any drivers in windows aside from the "standard" default ones that it recognized. I also left it disconnected from the network. This for have the more clean and raw system possible and eliminate any possible conflict (obviously this is only a test). Nothing, always the usual problem of wrong inputs/outputs assignments. It doesn't depend on Windows configurations, drivers installed, devices or CbB options...but the PC (?). I have done a lot of tests with clean hard disk bare metal images, VMs and so on excluding pretty much all. But the most absurd thing is that, if after checking the problem, I do an hard disk partition image of the "real" pc system that has the problem, and load this one in a virtual machine inside it (with the limitations that this entails, of course) then the inputs/outputs are assigned in an correct way 1+2 - 3+4 - 5+6 ,etc, and not 7+8(TSS-1) - 1+2 - 3+4 - 5+6,etc like in the video. Really weird. The same exactly system image executed in the "real" machine generates the problem, in a virtual machine it doesn't. I don't really understand where the problem is but unfortunately I need it to work in the real machine...It's a bit complicated to explain all the tests I have done, so before writing a "book"? for explain all and even to keep things simple...I would like to gently ask, if you have some spare time, if you could do a simple test for check this, so I could better understand if others have this strange error too.

The error appears when a track template with vst multi-out is inserted in a project (kontakt or some drums VST are good examples).
However I have isolated a situation in which is visible (at least for me it is) and that should be reproducible by all, without additional VSTs (all is already included in CbB) and only in some seconds of time.

Try this on new project:
Insert from Track Templates-Soft Synth Track Templates - Session Drummer3-LinnDrumm Tight and warm
(in case it's not installed it's normal that gives you a " missing plug-in" error, ignore it and go on (ok), it doesn't matter for this test)
It should load:
SD3 MIDI track
input Session Drummer3 (but the first couple of ports named only "primary") 1 + 2 kick
input Session Drummer3 3+4 Snare
input Session Drummer3 5+6 HiHat
input Session Drummer3 7+8 Toms
input Session Drummer3 9+10 Overheads

ALL OK!

Now on a new project try this:
Insert the Instrument TTS-1 ((it's important that a virtual instrument is already inserted into the project))
then add also Insert from Track Templates-Soft Synth Track Templates-Session Drummer3-LinnDrumm Tight and warm
(again, in case it's not installed it's normal that gives you a " missing plug-in error, ignore it and go on (ok), it deosn''t matter for this test)

It should load:
input 7 + 8 TTS-1 Kick (THIS is the ERROR!)
input Session Drummer3 (again the first couple of ports named only "primary") 1+2 Snare (the ports are moved by one position)
input Session Drummer3 3+4 HiHat (the ports are moved by one position)
input Session Drummer3 5+6 Toms (the ports are moved by one position)
input Session Drummer3 7+8 Overheads (the ports are moved by one position)

It happens also to you? You have to correct all the inputs stereo couples because by mistake it inserts the last one (in this example 7+8 of TTS1) of the VST instrument loaded first and then it moves all subsequent inputs stereo couples. Ignore the fact that the firts output of Session Drummer3 is named "Primary Output" and not "Session Drummer3 1" as it should, probably doesn't mean nothing for the problem. It seems only a "name" error that appears with SD3. Other VSTs like Kontakt,etc have all the correct port "name" for the first one.

I upload also a small video of the problem. I hope it's clear. I tried to also upload a .gif video, however the forum always give me "-200 error" so I zipped the gif video.

Animation23.gif.zip

Many thanks to all for your help!

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Ronny.G

[Fred's Gratis Scores]

I'm having similar issues with VST outputs, also using track templates but this is happening on project templates. I have many Kontakt instances loaded. It seems that instruments on output 1+2S and 3+4S output to the correct audio track. However, from outputs 5+6S and up I get no audio. 

When I initially setup the Kontakt instance it works as expected. After saving the project template, closing Cakewalk, then open Cakewalk and create a project based on that project template, the audio on the 3rd tracks and higher is not routed correctly. I can see VU activity in Kontact on output pair 5+6, verify that the audio track is receiving from 5+6S but no sound. I also get this problem if I open the project template directly. Also, the audio track input labels are messed up (multiple "Kt. 3" labeled outputs. It doesn't seem to matter if the output tracks are "instrument" tracks or split MIDI and audio tracks.

Today I had an issue that if I deleted track 3 (5+6S), then the outputs for 3+4S were re-routed to who knows where. I don't know if it's exactly the problem you describe, but it seems to be related.

[Ronny.G]

Hi and thanks for your reply!

it could be related, it's so strange that I can say I have seen a bit of everything (besides if there is something wrong it is difficult to establish a single way in which it can mess up the output ports). It also depends on the project probably. At some point the situation gets so messed up that sometimes it's easier to close everything and start from scratch.

Unfortunately if it happens when you have numerous VSTs and dozens and dozens of tracks it is a tragedy...

Once out of curiosity I separated all the MIDI/audio tracks of the various VST because I really wanted to understand what had happened...I lost an hour and a half! it messed it up a lot more... The problem is that while I fixed one output port others would crash (sometimes the inputs also messed up). I had to find which VSTs became "tied" and remove and then selectively put back the situations that were incorrigible. In the end I restored without trashing the project but it was just to see what actually happened...in reality you can not miss an hour and half for this. But at the end I have this problem so it's normal that you mess it up a bit when it occurs.

Nowadays then also the port routing is quite complex and I would say necessary given all the various plugins that make use of it to modify the input MIDI signals before they reach the various VST. So audio and midi routing in a DAW software must be perfect, flexible, and so on it must always work and be salvable (track template). In my opinion it's the necessary starting point on which to build something with various plugins later. But this is another matter...here for me it doesn't work even with a simple instance of Kontakt with 16 output ports if it's the second plugin I loaded as a track template.

Also for me it seems that MIDI and audio channels of the VST separated or not  are irrelevant. I also noticed in my Kontakt an error in "kt.3" names but in this case it could just be the fact that Kontakt doesn't expose the name correctly but most of the time the routing is correct.

This problem doesn't happen to me if the track template is the first and only thing I load into an empyt project..the problem occurs later. Maybe today I will try with a project template with my vst's multiout, like you, to see if the "track templates" problem also arises in "project templates" 

If you have a moment of time (it really only takes a few minutes and don't require anything that it is not already included in CbB) please try to do this small test that I indicated here:

3 hours ago, Ronny.G said:

Now on a new project try this:

Insert the Instrument TTS-1 ((it's important that a virtual instrument is already inserted into the project))
then add also Insert from Track Templates-Soft Synth Track Templates-Session Drummer3-LinnDrumm Tight and warm
(again, in case it's not installed it's normal that gives you a " missing plug-in error, ignore it and go on (ok), it deosn''t matter for this test)

It should load:
input 7 + 8 TTS-1 Kick (THIS is the ERROR!)
input Session Drummer3 (again the first couple of ports named only "primary") 1+2 Snare (the ports are moved by one position)
input Session Drummer3 3+4 HiHat (the ports are moved by one position)
input Session Drummer3 5+6 Toms (the ports are moved by one position)
input Session Drummer3 7+8 Overheads (the ports are moved by one position)

It happens also to you?

Edited November 18, 2021 by Ronny.G

[Ronny.G]

Hi,

today I tried to do some experiments using the "project templates" also.

I tried with one or more copies of kontakt in the same project (of course always each with its 16 stereo audio outputs set) and also adding to these additional VST synths.

I couldn't recreate the problem you described. Once the various saved templates were reopened, the routing had been maintained correctly.

The names displayed on the left in the column are not very indicative in kontakt since it's known that its way of calling them is not entirely optimal (I had them with some wrong names, as always, but different from yours) . usually I ignore them and I orient myself using only the names on the right of the column (1+2s, 3 + 4s, etc.), it's simpler...

About my problem with the "track templates" instead the problem has always recurred even while I was experimenting with the"project templates".

Example:

I insert two copies of kontakt with 16out (32 tracks), check that everything is ok and save the project as a "Project template". I close CbB,reopen it and load the saved project template with the two Kontakts and all the routing it's still ok.

If instead starting from the initial situation with the two kontakt 16out in the project I save one with its 16 tracks as "track template". I close CbB, reopen it and create an empty new file. I load the saved track template and is ok, but if I load this template again into the same project...the error....the first output of the second copy just inserted is set to the last of the first and the following are all translated by one number. The usual problem. Summarizing in a very simple scheme:

1-Kontakt1 / Kontakt1 1+2S

2-Kontakt1 / Kontakt1 3+4S

....

16-Kontakt1  / Kontakt1 15+16S

then

1-Kontakt2 / Kontakt1 15+16S

2-Kontakt2 / Kontakt 1+2S

....

16-Kontakt2 / Kontakt 13+14S

It almost seems that any saved (multi-out) track template with any vst instrument, when other VST tracks are already present in the project, can no longer identify what is the correct first output track to be inserted. And retrieves that of the VST instrument immediately above the track where it's inserted. Maybe a problem of 0 or 1 to identify it or something else? just my guess, but in fact if the track template is loaded alone in the project, it works because it has no way to go wrong.

Maybe if you or even others who read this post could run the little experiment I described, probably in case there is a bug you could make the problem obvious even without using any additional VST tool (type kontakt,etc) . This is also in order to make it easier for developers to visualize the problem since the condition in which it occurs would be identical for everyone.
 

Quote

 

On a new project try this:

Insert the Instrument TTS-1 (it's important that a virtual instrument is already inserted into the project)
then do Insert from Track Templates-Soft Synth Track Templates-Session Drummer3-LinnDrumm Tight and warm
(it's normal that gives you a "missing plug-in" error in case it's not installed, ignore it and go on (ok), it doesn't matter for this test)

It should load:
input 7 + 8 TTS-1 Kick (THIS is the ERROR!)

 

Many thanks to all again

[Fred's Gratis Scores]

@Ronny.G

I'm running the latest release of Cakewalk by BandLab (2021.11 as of the time of this writing). I tried the steps you outlined above, but everything looks good on the audio input to track 3.

 

After much testing and trying different things, I was able to resolve my issue with Kontakt. The issue actually happened when I deleted unused tracks on that Kontakt instance. I resolved that issue by resetting the default outputs in Kontakt from a blank project.

Now when I open my project template, when I delete unused tracks the routing does not get messed up and the instrument audio input show the proper labels and not multiple sets of "Kt.3".

 

Not sure how it got messed up but I know it did start happening when they added the "nice" readable labels to the instrument audio input selector.

[Ronny.G]

@Fred's Gratis Scores I thank you very much for taking the test!

So it seems that this issue only occurs in my specific condition and is not a generic bug (I remove the "bug" tag in my post accordingly if I can).

Unfortunately I tried everything to try to solve it starting from trying to modify/check the simplest and most obvious things until reaching extreme solutions (image recovery,different CbB versions, clone the same system on virtual machine,etc...) as I wrote in my description of the problem. Nothing. I haven't worked it out in months...That's why I was happy to check (thank you again for running the small test) if it was a problem only mine or not.

In case anyone had any suggestions (apart from replacing the pc...?) or if you run into my same problem let me know if you managed to figure out what the problem is or could be. Surely there must be something very strange that causes it. Also because as I could verify the SAME identical image of the disk with installed CbB, on one system generates the error on another no...I don't remember ever having a problem like this in the past. Or better in case of different processor, chipsets,cards,external peripherals,drivers, etc. for sure different behavior can happen. But in this case what it does not work properly is only the track template when you use a synth multi output (all in and out only software only)...really weird

Happy to know that you solved your problem with kontakt names.

Again if anyone had any suggestions or figure out what the problem is or could be please le t me know. Thanks to all

Edited November 20, 2021 by Ronny.G

[musekamp]

On 11/19/2021 at 9:16 PM, Fred's Gratis Scores said:

@Ronny.G

. . .

After much testing and trying different things, I was able to resolve my issue with Kontakt. The issue actually happened when I deleted unused tracks on that Kontakt instance. I resolved that issue by resetting the default outputs in Kontakt from a blank project.

. . .

Thank you!!!

I was having a similar problem as what you describe. For some of my track templates only the first 2 channels had audio output -- but some of my track templates were still OK. Could not see any differences between how the templates were structured. And whenever I added a new Kontakt instance and did the "append" method, I could not get audio output beyond the first 2 instruments.

What fixed it for me was:
1. New empty project
2. Add Kontakt instance as a per-output instrument track. Don't load any Kontakt instrument.
3. Reset the Kontakt outputs the way you described, saving it as the default configuration.
4. Exit Cakewalk without saving and restart it.
So now (fingers crossed) all my existing track templates appear to work and I can add new multi-instrument instances of Kontakt.
Thanks again. I was spending a lot of time trying to figure this out, and I don't know if I could have solved it without seeing your post.

(Latest versions of both Cakewalk and Kontakt.)

Edited November 22, 2021 by musekamp
add versions

[msmcleod]

@Ronny.G - can you post your SessionDrummer 3 track template here?

I've followed the steps in your original post, but can't reproduce the issue... works every time for me.

Maybe it's something in the template itself that is causing the issue.