Punch recording starting a measure late. Am I doing wrong what I think I'm doing wrong?

[Starship Krupa]

(note: I'm not using the metronome and there are also 0 count-in measures set, so I'm pretty certain that's not the issue)

Scenario is that I'm trying to punch in a chorus, recording a sustained block chord organ part to MIDI. The chorus begins at measure 19 so I set my punch-in to 19:01:000. Chorus ends at measure 29, so I set my punch-out to 30:01:000 to give myself a bit of overlap if necessary.

I'm also looping it, and set my loop points to 17:01:000 and 30:01:000. Starting early so that I can drop into the groove and ending late in case I need to overlap.

What's happening is that I start playing, but my playing doesn't start getting recorded until I get a full measure into the chorus.

What I suspect is causing this is that I'm playing sustained notes and am rushing (see "not using the metronome" above), so starting them before the punch-in. Although I can hear notes sounding, my note-ons aren't getting recorded; it's not until I lift and go to the next chord that it sees note-ons. Sound likely?

If that's the issue, let this function as a public service announcement: when punching in a MIDI performance, set your punch point a quarter note or so ahead of where you think you're going to start playing so that sustained notes don't get lost.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Starship Krupa

[Ted K. Ling]

Sounds reasonable.  Have you tried playing the chord just slightly after the punch-in time and looked whether the note has been recorded (in that bar) ?  Or has it recorded at the start of the next bar ?

[57Gregy]

My guess is that you're starting playing too early, say at 18:04:987 so your first chord doesn't get recorded and only picks up later events.
I would set the punch-in to an earlier start time.

Reading again, it seems you already suspect that. ?

Edited July 30, 2021 by 57Gregy

[David Baay]

The whole purpose of punch recording is to ignore input that arrives outside the punch region. In the case of MIDI, if the Note On is ignored, you don't have a note.

The concept of punching in is more applicable to audio where you need a gapless transition from an existing continuous data stream to a new one. MIDI doesn't work that way because  there's no data between the start of a note and the end.

For these reasons, I almost never use punch with MIDI. I just record another take in a new lane, and 'comp' sections together.  This can still be a challenge if notes are overlapping (often the case in piano compositions), It's best to find a place where that isn't happening; otherwise you're stuck with manually editing in the PRV to resolve collisions/doubling. Comping tools don't really work for MIDI for the same reasons that punch is a problem.

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by David Baay

[Billy86]

I seem to be able to punch in MIDI pretty well using Sound On Sound setting. In my experience, you can punch in a hair early if that’s the issue. May have to tweak slightly in PRV. 

[Larry Jones]

5 hours ago, Billy86 said:

...Sound On Sound setting...

This is the workaround I use: Switch to sound on sound mode, and don't bother "punching in" at all. Just roll back a few bars and hit Record. Your existing content won't be erased and the new recording will be in a new clip on the same track. Once you get a good take you can select it along with the existing stuff on that track and bounce to clips. As @Billy86 notes, you may have to do a little PRV editing, but that's normal for me, due to my clumsy keyboard playing.

[John Vere]

A USB footswitch programed for "R"  That's how I do it. Sometimes I will have one hand playing the keyboard controller and the other hand on the computer keyboard. 

How many of you remember that was how we did things with Tape. At least both my Yamaha MT 100 and later the MD 8 had a punch in footswitch option. So does Cakewalk and it will work for midi or audio. 

The "take lanes" approach works too. In the old midi days I always had 2 tracks for recording. I would record until I made a mistake. Delete the bad notes. Then arm track 2, pre roll, start recording from the last good note of take 1 and go until I made the next mistake etc. When done merge the 2 tracks. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by John Vere

[Noel Borthwick]

You don't even need a foot switch. Use midi shift key bindings and assign a special key to start recording.

[John Vere]

2 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

You don't even need a foot switch. Use midi shift key bindings and assign a special key to start recording.

Great Idea,  Ya, My Roland has a few assignable buttons and I keep meaning to get that working. But the footswitch is awesome for guitar playing as I can keep my hands on the guitar. I also use it for tracking vocals because I can stand a ways from that dang noisy computer.  

[Ted K. Ling]

StarshipKrupa ... did you ever solve this "issue" ?  If so, what was the solution ?  Thx.

[David Baay]

He pretty much diagnosed and solved it in the original post:

"What I suspect is causing this is that I'm playing sustained notes and am rushing (see "not using the metronome" above), so starting them before the punch-in."

If that's the issue, let this function as a public service announcement: when punching in a MIDI performance, set your punch point a quarter note or so ahead of where you think you're going to start playing so that sustained notes don't get lost."

If the note-on is played before the punch-in, it will be ignored, and you won't get a note. If your timing is reasonable, setting the punch point a 64th early should do the trick. Or do as I suggested, and just Comp-record into a new lane and comp the parts together instead of trying to punch in.

[Starship Krupa]

As for solutions, I'll just go with the reminder to make sure that if you're coming in with a big sustained chord, that note-on for that pup better be inside your punch region. It seemed like there was something weird going on, but it was late and when I tried it in a brand new project it worked perfectly so whatever.

For this task I'm more inclined to do it using other methods, like setting up a loop and hitting record and let the clips pile up, but in this case I thought I'd try the punch-in feature because it's something I rarely use. I wanted to make sure I knew how to use it, wanted to see if it's easier than doing it the way I usually do.

[Ted K. Ling]

10 hours ago, David Baay said:

He pretty much diagnosed and solved it in the original post

 

3 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I thought I'd try the punch-in feature because it's something I rarely use.

I also rarely use punch-in/out and that's why I was interested ... maybe I was missing something.  Thanks.