Cakewalk needs new young users::.

[Craig Anderton]

But back to the younger demographic...I do seminars to at places like MTSU, where the demographic is entirely college age. They're very enthusiastic about the subjects covered in the seminars. They like having their learning process shortened, because they can learn from my mistakes, or gain from my experience. When I talk about Cakewalk, they're responsive.  They just don't know about it, or this forum. 

When forums were the only game in town, sure, that's where you had to go, and participation reflected that. Now there are so many online places to learn things. I just posted an Instagram video on how to create a cool preset in Helix, and it got 2,400 views - more than it would get on the Helix forums. Yet, the Helix forums are the go-to place for deep information, and participation seems to cut across a variety of age groups.

There's nothing inherently wrong about like-minded people congregating in the same place, except that given all the competition for attention, it's unlikely that others will stumble on some place by accident that they might want to know about. But, let's not look at the past through rose-colored glasses, either. When this forum was at its peak in terms of attendance, there were a LOT of whiners, spammers (kitchen cabinets in Manchester, anyone?), crazies, and the noise-to-signal ratio was high. The Cakewalk forums were pretty civilized compared to many other places, but in its current incarnation, the crazies are pretty much gone.

I still have my Sound, Studio, and Stage forum, which has been in continuous operation for over 25 years. It has nowhere near the participation it once had, but that gives a certain freedom to discuss anything, and not have to deal with crazies. Some of the information in there is pure gold, like a guy who said that he no longer needs to wear headphones when tracking vocals, because he uses a figure-8 pattern mic, and points the null toward the monitor.  It really does work, but I would not have considered checking it out without reading his post. Once you record vocals without headphones, you might never go back.

Perhaps the biggest problem with forums is lurkers. Lurkers in my forum outnumber posters by 10 or 20:1, and even more. I posted a thread once asking why people didn't participate. One guy said "I feel like I'm attending a panel discussion with smart people, and I have nothing to add." I can't imagine someone saying that on TikTok

 

[Gswitz]

Cakewalk is a good thing. I don't know if new users will come or not. Lots of young people make music. There's a lot of old music talent with things to share. From minor substitutions to mike placement. Tricks to fix recording mistakes like vocal pops (thanks @Craig Anderton).

My gma practiced jazz. I have her old sheet music. She was fairly talented. I wonder what things she worried i wouldn't adopt. She thought i chose terrible shoes. She loved singing together.

This forum is the stoop of a general store where anyone is welcome. Cakewalk the guitar in the corner anyone is welcome to.

[InstrEd]

13 hours ago, Gswitz said:

Cakewalk the guitar in the corner anyone is welcome to

Just don't touch the Baby Grand Piano ?

[Astraios]

On 5/26/2021 at 7:56 AM, MarianoGF said:

It's obvious, but the future of any software is determined for the amount of new users it attracts. I love CbB, but I see it's something like a gift by BandLab for the +40 users (like me), who used it for decades. But unlike me, lots of veteran users hate every new feature or change for the good of the software. They are stuck in the concept of "all the past time was better", and there's no other ambit in the universe where that concept is wrong, but in technology.

Cakewalk is constantly improving, even more frequently than ever in the past, but along with technical improvement, it needs a daily dynamic community activity, in order to get new users who assure the existence of CbB in the future. This forum is awesome for those who already belong to the community, but it's not an entrance door for new users. A more active official Facebook page, as well as an Instagram, not to mention a more dynamic and complete website, are essential things to get new blood. Once they know about Cakewalk and start using it, they can join this forum and give fresh ideas to build the future of Cakewalk.

Just my point of view.
Thanks::.

That is just how it is... period! ?️‍♂️ (and I am +60...)

Edited May 28, 2021 by Astraios

[Colin Nicholls]

I'm astounded that all these new young users aren't clamouring for the Track Layers feature to be restored.

[InstrEd]

43 minutes ago, Colin Nicholls said:

I'm astounded that all these new young users aren't clamouring for the Track Layers feature to be restored.

With the music they are making they don't need layers. One take is all they need  

[chris.r]

On 5/26/2021 at 11:36 PM, chris.r said:

The whole point of my previous post was that today there's no right way for those who prefer to install software and do not poke with it later.

Just took a short break from dealing with another forced Win10 mayhem and only came back to attest a disaster. The so called feature update broke too many plugins, my Steinberg plugins and apps are no longer working because probably e-licenser is now broken. Many plugins have got their authorizations cancelled, some of them crash Cakewalk now. A few apps suddenly not working and even hard to say where to start with repairing. Sandboxie broken, no more safe browsing. Also I've lost some tabs I'm used to keeping open for convenience along with some other info that's got lost as well. It's just proving this OS can only be stable for max a couple of months, not years as it used to be for me.

I have no idea how do you guys cope with it. I'm only several months on Win10 and already having enough of it. I really had it kept in default settings as much as I could, didn't help. It was fairly fresh install, still is. No way I'm the only one getting such trouble, am I? Ok, now back to jumping through hoops to get the e-licenser stuff and other plugins working again. This is all sad.

I sincerely feel sorry for every user that has to deal with similar issues now since Windows 10. And all devs that have to deal with fixes every couple month because of a new Windows 10 feature update, especially if they are trying keeping their software compatible win 64-bit AND 32-bit, Win10 AND Win7 (sometimes even XP), Win AND Mac OS (sometimes also Linux), intel AND now Arm processor, etc... they are heroes.

Lucky you who do not experience all that.

Edited May 29, 2021 by chris.r

[razor7music]

My  .02c, you're going to get a fairly good number of new young users because it's free. They just need to know it's pro level, and we'll, that it exists-- not in that order.

[Starship Krupa]

On 5/25/2021 at 11:40 PM, Pragi said:

If you visit the forum /community of other DAW's you will find them in a compareable situation,the days of the classic DAW's seem to slowly pass away.

It seems more that the days of widespread forum participation are slowly passing away. I do wonder, though, these youngsters who consider forums to be an outdated form of community information exchange, what platform(s) are they using in place of them?

Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, there's nothing that I've seen that can touch the encyclopedic density of persistent information that a forum generates (which the young ones also benefit from via Google searches). As far as I know, I can't topic search a Facebook Group. Nor a YouTube comments section (I notice that YouTube added a "community" tab to channels that functions more like....a forum). Reddit discussions seem to have a much shorter half-life than in a forum.

Besides the ease of information access, there's the sense of community that's like walking into a favorite cafe where you've gotten to know the regulars. I guess since I started out as a BBSer 30-odd years ago and still have IRL friends from those days, I'm pretty used to threaded message communities. FIDOnet, then usenet after that.

For anyone concerned about Cakewalk attracting a younger user base outside of this forum, check out the views counts on X.E.L. Ohh's YouTube channel. His tips on Piano Roll View got10,000 views, his one on using Graillon in CbB got 27,000, how to record vocals 16,000, and weirdly enough his video on making a beat using only TTS-1 got 4,300 views. He has 3,000 subscribers, which isn't exactly Rick Beato territory, but that's 3,000 people who want to know whenever he drops another tutorial. Another YouTuber is Mike of Creative Sauce, whose CbB videos draw in the tens of thousands, and his Cakewalk Basics video has drawn almost 250,000 views.

I don't know (and don't really care) how those numbers stack up against, say, people who do Cubase tutorials, but I like the idea of a quarter of a million people watching a video about how to use Cakewalk. BandLab sure don't seem to be throwing money at advertising, the budget looks to be going to pay developers, which is fine with me. REAPER looks to have a solid place in the market based on being a quality product at a low price, and I think they've relied on word of mouth (to a fault at times).

[Steev]

8 hours ago, chris.r said:

Just took a short break from dealing with another forced Win10 mayhem and only came back to attest a disaster. The so called feature update broke too many plugins, my Steinberg plugins and apps are no longer working because probably e-licenser is now broken. Many plugins have got their authorizations cancelled, some of them crash Cakewalk now. A few apps suddenly not working and even hard to say where to start with repairing. Sandboxie broken, no more safe browsing. Also I've lost some tabs I'm used to keeping open for convenience along with some other info that's got lost as well. It's just proving this OS can only be stable for max of a couple months, not years as it used to be for me.

I have no idea how do you guys cope with it. I'm only several months on Win10 and already having enough of it. I really had it kept in default settings as much as I could, didn't help. It was fairly fresh install, still is. No way I'm the only one getting such trouble, am I? Now back to going through hoops to get the e-licenser stuff and other plugins working again. This is all sad.

I sincerely feel sorry for every user that has to deal with similar issues now since Windows 10. And all devs that have to deal with fixes every couple month because of a new Windows 10 feature update, especially if they are trying keeping their software compatible win 64-bit AND 32-bit, Win10 AND Win7 (sometimes even XP), Win AND Mac OS (sometimes also Linux), intel AND now Arm processor, etc... they are heroes.

Lucky you who do not experience all that.

Here ya go bro, not everything is Microsoft's fault  support from their eLicenser 

Steinberg has always been VERY LAX in timely support and even difficult to deal with in terms changing & dealing with in keeping in touch with users & both Microsoft and Apple. They know well ahead of time of new developments and safety features "Requirements" before these rules take effect. And ONCE AGAIN eLicenser needs to report back to the Mutha Ship and get it's "Certification Approval" by MS & Apple "UPDATED". (even if you drive an old vintage car, you still have to renew is license plates registration.)

And if you think Microsoft is bad with Quick Moves enforcing "SECURITY" changes,  you would definitely NOT want to deal with Apple. With Apple ALL software and hardware has to be approved by them. And you CANNOT keep you favorite beloved audio interface for 20 years because Macs won't run old hardware AT ALL if the vendors keep support for current "time stamped" driver updates. They will also force you to change your passwords and dictate what software you can and cannot use depending on the age of your computer.  Other then adding RAM, you CAN'T upgrade components or your existing computer.. It's a very closed and tight fisted ecosystem, which only a fraction of the "choices" you have with Windows. And yet Mac users still have problems. ? I know, I'm one of them, and greatly concerned since Apple made the move to stop using Intel CPU's and start making their own "M" series processors rumored to give iPads BETTER performance than a desktop i7, I shutter to think about replacing my aging 8 year old iMac.? How well an M CPU handle Pro Tools and all my other apps designed for an Intel CPU, and is it gonna turn my NI Apollo 8x audio interface into a very expensive paperweight? When Apple switched from Motorola chips to Intel it blow up my MOTO 8, which thankfully worked with Win 2000. Oh WoWzEr we could be look'in at the price of a new car if things don't go right & QUICK ENOUGH....?

Well I'm not gonna bet on it, and I got some luddite blood in me, LoL and my Windows/Cakewalk Easy Bake Oven has always been more ultimately  powerful so if I can't stay in bidness with that, it's time for ME to retire. And lets face it, all the old schooler studio clients who have always INSISTED on working in Pro Tools are getting fewer and farther in between as are having to use Pro Tools for collaborating with other studios thru AVID cloud.

The new much younger clientele really don't seem to care what DAW I use anymore because they record their music at home and use all sorts of gear from Zoom, Tascam, Sony, Korg etc, and longer list of software #1 reigning "Champ" being "Ableton Live".  But I've found with the younger crowd picking a DAW and sticking with it long enough to really understand it is a rather complicated process in itself. It's like being a kid in a candy store, there's just too many and much too choose from and they want to take a taste of them all. As long as it gives them instant results selecting groove samples or laying track after track and layering layer after layer, until they feel it's GREAT, but just lacks something. And that's when they will come to me to master or remix, clean it up and make it POP & Sparkle to make it sound as good as it can get so they can "Drop" their new album for streaming, CD, and DVD, dood, like last WEEK.? Or as I like to refer to it, simply straightening out a sonic train wreck of FX, EQ, and dynamics, and possibly recording vocals and guitar tracks. And making sure copyright licensing/registering is up to snuff, not only on original tunes, but securing legal licensing for any cover tunes as well. And I HIGHLY recommend doing both. If you want to be one of those "Oh I only do ORIGINALS!" snobs then you better have one heck of a game plan for promoting your album, because doing a killer revision of one of your favorite tunes then represents your style is a GREAT way to show up on search engines and paying royalties is pennies on a dollar for that amount of otherwise FREE promotion.  People will click on your cover song by accident and like what they hear and curiously listen to your originals and become fans and tell their friends, so on and so forth, and hopefully spiral into mo' money 4 U and the more money 4 U means the more better and newer computer and software u can afford. ? RARELY do people seldom if ever click on a song by a band that they never heard before whilst searching for a song they know they want to hear on U-Toob, and if your music is recorded, produced, polished and SOUNDING GOOD people will buy it, and there isn't a better, EASIER, and freer way to do it then CAKEWALK by BANDLAB.

And the new and current CbB is not only are close as you can get to working a multi- million dollar pro studio where "everything works" as you can get, it's so nice, smooth, and stable now it instills a whole new level of comfort and confidence I've never really had to pleasure to experience before not having to worry about something breaking, that is, as long as you keep your computer's software & hardware up to snuff, staying up to date, Win 10 insures VASTLY improved super lower latency of Input monitoring using Waves v12 VST 3 FX is a whole new beautiful experience all in itself??, and those annoying sound engine dropouts I had with Win7 & SONAR are GONE.?? And last but not least, I've found the marriage between CbB and Bandlab.com new support and features for "Publishing" singles to albums are only second to NO ONE!? YES folks, Bandlab isn't just for streaming, you can upload albums up to UHD 24/96.wav quality and SELL THEM directly from Bandlab.com and guess how much it costs? Well if you kept up to date you would already know. ? Stop looking BACKWARDS and rationalizing excuses to stay there, the future is BRIGHT ahead of YOU and can do it. Oh YES you CAN!

I've never been one for trusting mastering straight from a DAW, but I've gotten some really, really GOOD & EXACTING results lately simply by strapping Ozone across the Master Buss. ? I've never had exacting results by doing this with SONAR. Cross referencing a stereo mixdown/master in Sound Forge Pro 10 nearly ALWAYS required tweaking to get right. But now .wav mixdown/mastering from CbB  and opening it Sound Forge Pro 15 Suite produces the same results.  And that means for CbB projects, I essentially only need to use SFP 15 for CD authoring and batch converting multiple audio formats at once.?

 

  Oh and BTW, your DON'T have to install "Optional Feature Updates" with Windows 10, only security updates. By default Windows " Update and Security" settings are set to "automatically" update everything, but you can and should switch it to "ask me first" or "manual" modes. This way you have months to read and research to pick and choose which feature updates you want at your leisure.

"Security" updates don't change your personal default settings, But "Feature" updates can and often will.

 

.

 

[chris.r]

2 hours ago, Steev said:

Here ya go bro, not everything is Microsoft's fault  support from their eLicenser 

Thanks, I'll have a look.

Yeah, the Apple rubbish nonsense doesn't make me feel better, it's just proving that's not a way out for me. I only can feel even more sorry for their users. For now I have no other choice than to stick with Windows 10 and the mess as I can't seem to find a better way for the time being but I definitely don't like it that way. I wonder that there is a kind of general, common acceptance for that.

2 hours ago, Steev said:

Oh and BTW, your DON'T have to install "Optional Feature Updates" with Windows 10, only security updates.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I could prolonge the doomsday for max 365 days in the regular security options and yesterday Windows decided time is up and started updating without warning, and I couldn't stop it. Maybe there are ways to edit group policies and alike but like I said I was trying to keep things fairly default. Besides I'm not IT literate to that extent.

Edited May 29, 2021 by chris.r

[Steev]

?

[Steev]

17 hours ago, chris.r said:

Thanks, I'll have a look.

Yeah, the Apple rubbish nonsense doesn't make me feel better, it's just proving that's not a way out for me. I only can feel even more sorry for their users. For now I have no other choice than to stick with Windows 10 and the mess as I can't seem to find a better way for the time being but I definitely don't like it that way. I wonder that there is a kind of general, common acceptance for that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I could prolonge the doomsday for max 365 days in the regular security options and yesterday Windows decided time is up and started updating without warning, and I couldn't stop it. Maybe there are ways to edit group policies and alike but like I said I was trying to keep things fairly default. Besides I'm not IT literate to that extent.

yEAH, Well, yeah, UH HUH..  Here We Go Again and Again, and AGAIN same 'ol, SAME 'OL but you don't have to take it ya know, just say NO and you can always just shut down your computer once and for ALL again, and get rid of all the evil conspiracies go'in on between Apple & Microsoft's plans to GET YOU so they suck the live out of you. ?  Just say "SCREW IT! I'VE HAD ENOUGH! I'm just going to join Bandlab where I can rock out with ANYONE I want to, and do it all from the free Android phone I got from service provider, so HA!" 

 

 

[Jeremy Oakes]

On 5/29/2021 at 9:04 PM, chris.r said:

Thanks, I'll have a look.

Yeah, the Apple rubbish nonsense doesn't make me feel better, it's just proving that's not a way out for me. I only can feel even more sorry for their users. For now I have no other choice than to stick with Windows 10 and the mess as I can't seem to find a better way for the time being but I definitely don't like it that way. I wonder that there is a kind of general, common acceptance for that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I could prolonge the doomsday for max 365 days in the regular security options and yesterday Windows decided time is up and started updating without warning, and I couldn't stop it. Maybe there are ways to edit group policies and alike but like I said I was trying to keep things fairly default. Besides I'm not IT literate to that extent.

If you have W10 pro, just disable the update service. Not too sure about home, i don’t have it

[Jerry Gerber]

I certainly may be one of the oldest Cakewalk users around here.   I turned 70 this year and started with Cakewalk for DOS back in 1991.  I recently released my 15th album , every one produced with Cakewalk,  and I'm very grateful to Bandlab for taking the baton and carrying Cakewalk into the 21st century.   In my opinion CW is better than ever.  When Bandlab decided to do some work on the staff view and add back the icons and fix the snap function I dropped Sonar and am very glad I did.   And thanks to all the people creating themes!  

As far as forums go, though not perfect, I have found that the CW forum to be the most friendliest and helpful.  And this is from a guy who generally hates forums.  I don't post or participate on any music forums any more other than occasionally on CW.   As Craig Anderton mentioned, the signal-to-noise ratio on many forums is often intolerable. 

Jerry

https://www.jerrygerber.com

https://www.jerrygerber.com/discs.htm

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by jsg

[mdiemer]

How's it going Jerry, good to hear from you. like Craig A. you're a voice of reason. Yeah, there's been some flaming around here lately. I actually received death-threats because I dared to criticize windows 10.  always one or two of those around. I just block them after they get nasty.

Me, it looks like I'm headed out of here. I've been experimenting with Sonar 8.5, and it actually is more stable on my system. For instance, the Vienna Synchron Player crashes CbB frequently. If I have didn't just save, I lose work. It never happens on Sonar 8.5. Much more stable, for me at least. I've been customizing it, and while it will never be as pretty as CbB, or as easy on the eyes, I feel it's more than compensated by never having to log in, touch base, phone home or whatever you want to call it.  and it will never be cloud-based, integrated into a web-based collaborative app, and will always work on Windows 7.

I've enjoyed your contributions (and music), and wish you the best. Thank God this place still has people like you and Craig (many others too, but I'd be here all day...).

There are other forums, I'm sure I'll find a new home.

 

[Starship Krupa]

7 minutes ago, mdiemer said:

Yeah, there's been some flaming around here lately. I actually received death-threats because I dared to criticize windows 10.

On this forum?? I guess I was lucky enough to have missed that....or I already have the user blocked. ?

As I've said previously, if having to authenticate once every 6 months is too high a price, then there are many other DAW's, probably even a couple that don't contact their home servers every time they start. We are blessed with so many alternatives.

One thing that's great about the new BandLab integration feature is that CbB doesn't force the user to use or even notice it. It exists in the release notes and as two menu items under File (like the LANDR integration that used to be in SONAR that was a menu item under Utilities).

[Will.]

Why would they come on forums when in the HipHop or EDM genres, theres thousands of new mixing concepts on youtube used by popular nominated young genius producers/mixing and mastering engineers giving tips on Youtube? Also CbB lacks one cruscial tool "A sample editor."

The importance of tranposing an 808 or any sample to them with a built-in editor without using third plugins for this -- thats the 1st thing they ask for in a DAW (Can you transpose samples?) This puts you off from convincing them to get onboard, cause you know what the answer will be. I'm satisfied with CbB. I Started using Sonar LE in my early 20's when FL Studio was already sitting at number one in studios in those genre's. 

Most tracks you heard then - seen on TV and that won awards in the EDM and HipHop genre's were strictly made / recorded / and mixed in FL. 

[Tezza]

With the win 10 headaches, I just don't get them because my DAW is offline. It's got whatever Win 10 version it had when I first put it on a year ago or whatever and that's it. Never updated. To be honest, never had a problem with it. 4 different DAW's and 3 different video editing programs.....no problems at all. There was the odd bug when first setting it up but those have been ironed out some time ago. A crackling noise that appeared in one of the DAW's was traced to the fridge turning on and off. Initially had some problems with the audio interface which a driver update fixed. I've not had Windows 10 cause any issues.

My laptop is online and continually updates which is really annoying but nothing has broken yet. I only use that for internet, website and office functions though, so that one has to stay up with the latest.

As regards Cakewalk attracting younger users, that's a hard call because there are lots of "free" or low cost DAW's out there now and many major DAW companies provide free or low cost entry level DAW's that are quite functional. Younger users are attracted to the EDM DAW stalwarts and are not that interested in plugging in guitars or using, or even playing, real instruments. The EDM market is huge.

Equally, they are unlikely to be attracted to a forum where making music "the old way" is preached.  It's like there are 3 generations. The first, when computers didn't exist and it was all about playing in bands and then going into a tape based recording studio. The second, where those same same style of musicians embraced computers but mainly to record their own songs using real instruments, supplemented perhaps by loops and synths etc Then the third where the real instruments are tossed away completely, and concentration is on loops, VSTI's, synths and piano roll programmed chords.

Bandlab is like the first generation but on-line, which makes it new and interesting and captures a particular market. Cakewalk is like the second generation, very good for integrating hardware and recording real instruments alongside typical  DAW uses, however, there is lots of competition here between DAW manufacturers. But the third generation is mainly captured by FL Studio and Ableton Live, Bitwig etc. What on earth will the 4th generation be doing.

 

[jackson white]

2 hours ago, Tezza said:

What on earth will the 4th generation be doing.

AI?