Acknowledge Cakewalk as a pro DAW

[Starship Krupa]

9 hours ago, twelvetone said:

I was preparing to record a band whose rehearsal room is in an old industrial site. No internet.

I have a small laptop in my bag for this purpose.

Cakewalk showed the red box that told me it would not save. 

For what value of the variable "to prepare?"

Your practices are your practices, but I am a stickler for testing my setup before taking it "out," as in my guitar and amp or drums and hardware before playing a live show, mixer, amp and speakers before bringing the PA to my friend's wedding, and so on. Because with live/multi-person studio work, it's not a matter of if something will go sideways, it's which thing will go sideways. Extra cables, extra strings, extra mics, I'm such a nut I used to carry fuses for every band member's amp.

It sounds like you don't turn that laptop on very often, did you check to make sure the battery and power supply were okay, that it would even boot? You've surely been tuned in long enough to know that CbB needs to either phone home or do the offline activation dance at least once every 6 months. That process is pretty much our only cost of using the license, but pay it we must. As Noel refers to, all companies want to know how many people are using their software. With programs you pay for, that's easy: how many licenses did we sell? They can't just count downloads, because I am sure there are many people who download Cakewalk, try it, go WTF? and never touch it again.

There is software that does require that you be connected to the Internet whenever you use it, Cakewalk is not that. It only requires that you connect to the Internet once in every 6 month period, and that connection doesn't even have to be the system where you're using it now that it has the offline activation option.

I'm sure it sounds like a high-handed lecture or blaming, but friendly advice from a (music and software industry) veteran is the intent. Not your fault that Cakewalk wasn't ready to go, rather that in your case, remembering before you take it out after a long inactive spell, checking Cakewalk's activation status is now something you need to do. You don't have to pay money for licensing fees, but there is a cost in that you need to be aware of the activation status. If that cost is unacceptable, then perhaps another DAW solution would be better.

In any event, in the spirit of having a backup in case of (corporate) failure, acquiring and learning another DAW (as you are doing with Studio One) is an excellent step. Having one single tool be mission critical when companies go out of business (see Cakewalk, Inc.), spin products off, quality goes downhill, whatever, is not best practice in a time when so many options are available. You might find as many have that Studio One works better for you overall and Cakewalk becomes your backup DAW. Win-win in any case.

[Jim Fogle]

On 5/13/2021 at 5:42 PM, chris.r said:

From my correspondence with uJam, the reasoning for it was that Cakewalk is Windows only. Period.

???? THIS ????

There seems to be a belief that you can't be professional grade unless you're cross platform.

[Steev]

Hmm... There are more pro peeps talking about CbB then you might think.. Check this out..  ?? THIS SOFTWARE IS BETTER THAN PRO TOOLS AND IT'S FREE!!! - YouTube

I remember back in the days around the time of SONAR 4 Producer it won "Best DAW Awards" from every music equipment & software review mag for a couple of years running while lead to 2 MEPA Awards, yet still it was talked about very little to none at all from music and software retailers. I'm sure this had more to do profits and commissions as SONAR Producer was extremely reasonably priced for such an extremely "Jam Packed" powerful, well equipped, feature rich DAW that it simply "Didn't NEED ANY EXTRA 3rd PARTY Instruments or FX Plugins to achieve Professional Results."  Of course you "could" run 3rd party DX and VST audio FX and instruments if you wanted to, you just didn't have to because they were already included and bundled with SONAR PE. And I truly believe from the heart that these are not only the best reasons why music retailers and publications resisted talking about SONAR PE back then when it ONLY had a shelf price of $500(us). What could they "honestly" say? That $500 worth of SONAR = $2500 of Cubase or $5000 worth of Pro Tools? But in those days, spending $5000 on a Mac/Pro Tools rig was ultra cheap considering what it would cost to record ONE ALBUM of the same quality to tape. There weren't exactly a lot of choices of top contenders of this caliber back in SONAR days.. I liked eMagic Logic a lot, Cakewalk's main competition at the time in my opinion, Cubase was kinda strong for Electronica but I thought lagging and kinda weak for everything else. But when Apple bought Logic they dropped and orphaned support for Windows, so I dropped and stopped using Logic because Pro Tools does NOT like sharing audio interface drivers with other DAWS very much, and I ONLY run Pro Tools on my Mac, and I only do that to keep my studio in business alive.  And as much of a fan and even maybe a minor evangelist I am of Pro Tools running on a MAC, I have to say I'm a much bigger fan and MAJOR evangelist of CAKEWALK by BANDLAB running on a Windows 10 computer with decent audio/MIDI interface and enough power to handle a DAW properly! Like a desktop/tower with a quad-core CPU with 8 gigs of memory with do the trick nicely, but an 8 core with 16 gigs of memory is the starting point of little worries of where the dreams are made of.??

And I don't love CbB because it's free, because it's that GOOD. I'd also like to add that I still use SONAR Platinum to open and work older projects to remix and insure I know exactly what I have going on, and as an extra layer of precaution, I'll add/update a new "save as" to another hard drive, a new version number to "rename" the project before opening and working on them in CbB. It's a long standing "just in case" measure that saved my ***** and original projects more than once over the decades. SPLAT still runs very well, rock solid in fact, but it not having some of the newer improvements & workflow enhancements I've grown to love and really appreciate in CbB is a tad frustrating.  And I can also really, REALLY appreciate the comparison 1st hand the amount of work and effort that gone on since Bandlab took over! ????? It really wreaked havoc on the conceptual continuity of my perceptions of "You only get what you pay for." for a couple of minutes. ? Seriously, I was still in kinda shock from Magix throwing ACIDplanet under the buss (along with 20 years of collaborators I lost contact with and my music i had published there?), then shortly afterGibson throwing SONAR under the buss??, I didn't really know how long it would run good on an ever changing Windows platform, and I was minutes away from purchasing a full License for Presonus Studio ONE along with ANOTHER new tedious learning curve???, my Pro Tools AVID Cloud and support license was expiring????. Yeah, I guess you could say I was in a rather foul mood  when I read Meng's announcement that Bandlab was taking over and continuing support for my favorite DAW, the very DAW that's the ground zero CENTERPIECE of my creativity. ??

  And so.... I'm completely convinced after over 30+ years of rigorous efforts of trials and errors looking for the best DAW, I can honestly say from the heart that they are all good, so the best DAW for anybody should be the DAW the you are MOST familiar with. That, and any & every DAW is only as good as the computer it's installed on. That's a good thing to keep in mind when you're having problems trying to run 24 tracks with dozens of plugins on your 10 year old mid grade laptop running ASIO4ALL drivers.?

Gear Heads trying to make a living have LESS reasons to discuss Cakewalk by Bandlab  today now that Cakewalk by Bandlab is SO MUCH better NOW then it was when they stopped talking about it 10 years ago, and that it's FREE..... ? Well....... It's not exactly a well kept secret

 I don't know of any honest single seasoned professional audio/MIDI engineer that anything bad or negative to say about CbB other then maybe "WOW this could be bad for business. This DAW is so GOOD it SCARES THE SHIT OUTTA ME!"

 

 

[Kevin Walsh]

What he said.

[Toddskins]

11 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

As mentioned above one requirement is to keep the software up to date. If you follow these simple steps activation is a non issue.

I'm still using Win 7 and the latest update of CbB is working fine still.  But when the day comes that an update causes havoc for me, is there a way to revert back to the prior version built into CbB software?   I think that was spoken about a year ago on this site, but don't remember.

And then 2nd, when updating can no longer be done by Win 7 users, is that going to cause a problem in some manner with regard to the activation thing?  (Will we be able to maintain using CbB on the latest good Win 7 version that works for us, forever?)

Edited May 16, 2021 by Toddskins

[mdiemer]

42 minutes ago, Toddskins said:

I'm still using Win 7 and the latest update of CbB is working fine still.  But when the day comes that an update causes havoc for me, is there a way to revert back to the prior version built into CbB software?   I think that was spoken about a year ago on this site, but don't remember.

And then 2nd, when updating can no longer be done by Win 7 users, is that going to cause a problem in some manner with regard to the activation thing?  (Will we be able to maintain using CbB on the latest good Win 7 version that works for us, forever?)

Me too. And you have asked the 64,000-bit question (can't say 64,000 dollars,  since it's free). I'm not counting on it. No mal intent on the part of the developers here; they just need to cater to the majority, who have moved on. I'm wishin' and hopin' and prayin', but I'm also realistic. If the day comes when it will no longer work on Windows 7, I'll move on. But not to Windows 10.

[Craig Anderton]

7 hours ago, eezye said:

Whenever I see my friends (I have quite a few facebook musician friends or when it comes up in conversation) asking what DAW they should get, I always recommend Cakewalk. I make it clear that it's a legit, completely unhindered DAW for free... so it'd be pretty senseless NOT to try it, or even use it alongside another already paid DAW. I think that in and of itself is pretty effective, to be actively recommending it as individuals whenever the topic comes up as word of mouth will always be powerful.  I want it to be as popular as it can to keep the support ball rolling!

I recommend at seminars that no matter what Windows DAW someone uses, they really owe it to themselves to download Cakewalk. There are several unique functions that other DAWs don't have. I think many people have moved on from the "one DAW must rule them all" mindset, and use more than one DAW. It's easy enough export/import tracks, or even drag and drop, to use multiple programs for what they do best. There's no reason why you can't track or edit in one program, and mix in another.

It would be one thing for me to recommend Cakewalk if I expected people to shell out another $300 - $500 in addition to whatever other program they're using, but jeez, it's free. The guitarist/engineer for 60s folk-rock icon Melanie used to live in the neighborhood, and he used Sonar Platinum for all her projects. He was one of those people who was leery of Windows 10 and switching from Sonar to BandLab, but I talked him into it Turned out he wished he had done it sooner.

 

[michheld]

I recognize more and more professional producers get to know cakewalk, use it and share tutorials on YT. You may find a new guy nearly every week, e.g. this real good one:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Pvtchrislee07

 

[murat k.]

12 minutes ago, michheld said:

I recognize more and more professional producers get to know cakewalk, use it and share tutorials on YT. You may find a new guy nearly every week, e.g. this real good one:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Pvtchrislee07

This is great. I subscribed. But all of these YouTubers view count is not much. We also need a YouTuber who use Cakewalk with like a million subscribers and 100k views at least. It is not exist in these days but it will happen.

3 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

"one DAW must rule them all"

Cakewalk ?

[Steev]

9 hours ago, mdiemer said:

Me too. And you have asked the 64,000-bit question (can't say 64,000 dollars,  since it's free). I'm not counting on it. No mal intent on the part of the developers here; they just need to cater to the majority, who have moved on. I'm wishin' and hopin' and prayin', but I'm also realistic. If the day comes when it will no longer work on Windows 7, I'll move on. But not to Windows 10.

Move to WHERE? Linux? That's an enormous step BACKWARDS. To be perfectly realistic, there are really only 2 really good choices for solid performing  DAWs... Windows 10 or Apple OS-X? As far as I can see that's the only realistic answer/choices to your $64K question?. Do you have any  idea how much a decent Mac recording rig costs that can hold a candle to a Windows10 Cakewalk computer workstation? And what are the costs suffered by "the learning curve of using an entirely different OS"?

But let's forget learning curves and money, considering updates to Win 10 from Win 7 are remarkably small learning curve as their GUI's are very close to each othe,r and updating to Cakewalk are both FREE. ( and yes you can still update from Win 7 to Win 10 for free). If you get angry with you "freedom of choices" and forced updates from Microsoft, you're guaranteed a miserable life of LIVIDITY moving on to Apple. You only have one choice to run new software on an outdated version of OS-X. And that choice is YOU CAN'T. Apple won't let you.  Nor can you choose to run and old trusty beloved antiquated Firewire 400 audio interface that you love so much you want to be buried with on a modern Mac because the answer is simple as YOU CAN'T. Why? because Apple won't LET YOU! I personally know this to be true because I have 2 rather pricy Firewire 400 audio interfaces that were turned into paperweights because of this. My MOTU 8 and an AVID M box Pro. Both tested and work well on a Windows machine running ASIO drivers, just not as speedy as ANY USB 2 audio interfaces. And speaking of drivers, Apple doesn't support ASIO driver, they only support their Core Audio drivers. Windows 7 may not support the Windows 10 dramatically improved WDDM drivers, but it still supports ASIO drivers. I'm not even sure if Win 7 even supports the radically improved wonders of ARA and VST 3 technology at all? I'm not sure about that, but I don't really care. But I am sure about the fact that Win 10 is SO MUCH BETTER, FASTER, SMARTER (due to telemetry), maintenance free, and secure then Win 7 across the board that I don't have to because I no linger have to worry about these and so many others things anymore.

With all due respect my friend there was a time when  luddites said that about electricity. They argued; "Why do we a light bulb when a kerosene lantern can burn so much more brightly?" But the world kept on turning as electricity came to pass, and people would evolve and realize how much better the electric light bulb was and how much better, cleaner, healthier, and so much less expensive their homes were to live in, and as a result, they managed to save up enough money to by more freedom, as in, in the shape of a new Ford, a.k.a an automobile.

 But the luddites argued; "Why would you need an automobile when a horse and buggy is so much better? Can an automobile be your friend or find it's way home if you get lost?" But the world kept on turning as mass manufacturing progressed and as the people came to realize that even though a Ford isn't necessarily loving friend, it wouldn't get angry bite you if it thought you were ignoring it and getting a little too slow providing scheduled meals. But a Ford doesn't care how much food is in it's belly and it doesn't have to be fed every day whether you use it or not. The only thing a Ford will do to you to get even is leave you stranded on the road if you forget to feed it, but who's fault is that? And so naturally progression took it's course, and people started to realize that  there was nothing inherently evil about automobiles. And as such, saved up enough money to replace their aging local telegraph operator service with a telephone in their own home. Of course what with being a luddite and all, their aging local telegraph operator didn't appreciate this act of treason as much as those committing it, but........... Well your local landline telecommunications providers don't really have any more appreciation for cellular service providers then your broadcast media providers do for the Internet, now do they?

But tough tutties for the luddites, because you can't stop the world from turning and evolving, and without evolution there would be no progress, and if the luddites had their way we wouldn't be here right now because we would not only have "None of these things." and it would be a never ending and ultimately improbable chore to try and get the smell of kerosene out of our hair and clothes.

 And so as the story goes... Windows 7 was freak'in AWESOME for it's decade, but it's decade has PASSED and now it's as silly and dangerous as using kerosene lanterns because both pose extreme security risks.. Windows 7 was never intended to be a life long friend, and now, it not only holds you back from progressing, your standing on shaky, unstable grounds as the world continues to turn and evolve, you are one update away from blowing up and nuking you entire computer and taking Cakewalk by Bandlab with it.. And if that's not DANGEROUS I don't know what is!

 

[Steev]

12 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

I recommend at seminars that no matter what Windows DAW someone uses, they really owe it to themselves to download Cakewalk. There are several unique functions that other DAWs don't have. I think many people have moved on from the "one DAW must rule them all" mindset, and use more than one DAW. It's easy enough export/import tracks, or even drag and drop, to use multiple programs for what they do best. There's no reason why you can't track or edit in one program, and mix in another.

It would be one thing for me to recommend Cakewalk if I expected people to shell out another $300 - $500 in addition to whatever other program they're using, but jeez, it's free. The guitarist/engineer for 60s folk-rock icon Melanie used to live in the neighborhood, and he used Sonar Platinum for all her projects. He was one of those people who was leery of Windows 10 and switching from Sonar to BandLab, but I talked him into it Turned out he wished he had done it sooner.

 

Didn't Ray Charles record his last album with SONAR?

I really believe the term "it's free" has a serious and often times paralyzing "Stigmatizing Effect" on decision making. I know when I hear "it's free" slows me down a bit and it raises the hairs of the back of my neck having been burned so many times before, but both Windows 10 or Cakewalk have been around long enough to produce an overwhelming amount of testimony on how good, safe, and effective they are.

 I've always cringed at the question when asked "What DAW do you think I should get?"

My answer for over 20 years + was usually SONAR because it's so versatile feature rich it has something for anyone's style and workflows, which all so many would argue was too pricy and over bloated with features they don't feel they need, and now CbB which turns the discussion 180° around to "it isn't pricy enough." to be true for such a powerful and feature rich DAW ?

And so to dig out of that quagmire I suggest Reason 11 Studio, starting at $300 and has a super large arsenal of instruments and FX with a sweet SWEET sounding new and very powerful & authentic large format analog mixing console modeled  after the world famous shockingly pricy  SSL 9000k desk.

 But last and not even close to the least, don't know how or want to learn how to use Reason as a DAW or even know what an SSL mixing desk is or can do, no problem. Reason's new Rack Extension allows everything in Reason to run as a VST3 plugin in any DAW. Running it in Cakewalk's synth rack, I must rate it as "The Synth Rack from Heaven." If you can find or tweak the synth sounds you want, then they most likely don't exist. As it has each instrument running on it's own MIDI tracks running on Cakewalk's sequencer, and audio tracks within Cakewalk's mixer, or any other DAW that supports VST3 very efficiently with a surprising low hit to computer resources, and if THAT ain't a serious kick in the gas and serious compliment for any DAW, I don't know what is.?? But utterly useless for those who don't like or refuse to use synths in their music.? 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Steev

[Base 57]

2 hours ago, Steev said:

If you get angry with you "freedom of choices" and forced updates from Microsoft, you're guaranteed a miserable life of LIVIDITY moving on to Apple

After I upgraded to W10 I was one of those who battled against the update monster. It seemed I was spending as much time tweaking the system as I was making music.

About two years ago I surrendered. Now I only defer updates for a month and turn automatic update back on before that month is over so that the update happens when I want it to. Since then I have not had a Windows update break anything other than turning on power management for USB hubs. 

[Craig Anderton]

10 hours ago, murat k. said:

I subscribed. But all of these YouTubers view count is not much.

Hopefully that's because they find Cakewalk easy to figure out, so they're making cool music instead of looking at YouTube

[murat k.]

8 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said:

Hopefully that's because they find Cakewalk easy to figure out, so they're making cool music instead of looking at YouTube

?Learning never ends. I also learned so much from you Mr. Anderton. I would like to specially thank you for that. Your words also reminded me that I should focus on making music instead of watching YouTube tutorials. ?

I was trying to say, if someone popular on YouTube is using Cakewalk, that could allow viewers to be interested in Cakewalk and increase the number of Cakewalk users.

[MisterX]

On 5/15/2021 at 4:50 PM, Noel Borthwick said:

(...} As mentioned above one requirement is to keep the software up to date. If you follow these simple steps activation is a non issue.

Does it mean that an outdated CWBL version can't be activated untill it's updated to the most recent version?

[John Nelson]

For all of the hard work Noel and the crew put in on this program , all at no charge to me, well... I thank them every day and twice on Sunday.

[MisterX]

4 hours ago, Steev said:

(...)But I am sure about the fact that Win 10 is SO MUCH BETTER, FASTER, SMARTER (due to telemetry) (...)

Yeah, telemetry would make my offline system so much smarter...

Edited May 16, 2021 by MisterX

[MisterX]

6 hours ago, Steev said:

(...) I'm not even sure if Win 7 even supports the radically improved wonders of ARA and VST 3 technology at all? I'm not sure about that, but I don't really care.

 

I"m  quite sure that VST3 was supported even by the ancient  Windows XP:

https://www.steinberg.net/en/newsandevents/news/newsdetail/article/fabfilter-releases-vst3-plug-ins-453.html

Edited May 16, 2021 by MisterX

[Larry Jones]

On 5/15/2021 at 8:21 AM, Craig Anderton said:

I've given up on trying to spread the word through other outlets...

Sound on Sound dropped your column, the other mag never got back to you, Bandlab doesn't want to sell the big tip book... To me, these represent a great loss. The curiosity that leads you to report on the stuff you report on, the clarity you give to otherwise arcane concepts and your experience in the industry -- who knows why no one wants to compensate you for the great work you can do and have done? Maybe because of your association with the DAW disaster of Gibson you are considered damaged goods, no longer to be trusted??

As for polls showing little interest in Cakewalk, or your own tracking showing poor readership on the Cakewalk articles, I'm gonna put that down to the Cakewalk user base being smarter than the others, and not so much in need of how-tos and tutorials. We've still got some brilliant and helpful folks here on this forum, but I miss seeing your occasional posts, even if they're just hoverboard remarks. Which, by the way, THERE WILL NEVER BE A WORKABLE PRODUCT.

PS: Can you make it so the Music Player forum works on mobile devices, specifically my damn phone?

[mdiemer]

6 hours ago, Steev said:

Move to WHERE? Linux? That's an enormous step BACKWARDS. To be perfectly realistic, there are really only 2 really good choices for solid performing  DAWs... Windows 10 or Apple OS-X? As far as I can see that's the only realistic answer/choices to your $64K question?. Do you have any  idea how much a decent Mac recording rig costs that can hold a candle to a Windows10 Cakewalk computer workstation? And what are the costs suffered by "the learning curve of using an entirely different OS"?

But let's forget learning curves and money, considering updates to Win 10 from Win 7 are remarkably small learning curve as their GUI's are very close to each othe,r and updating to Cakewalk are both FREE. ( and yes you can still update from Win 7 to Win 10 for free). If you get angry with you "freedom of choices" and forced updates from Microsoft, you're guaranteed a miserable life of LIVIDITY moving on to Apple. You only have one choice to run new software on an outdated version of OS-X. And that choice is YOU CAN'T. Apple won't let you.  Nor can you choose to run and old trusty beloved antiquated Firewire 400 audio interface that you love so much you want to be buried with on a modern Mac because the answer is simple as YOU CAN'T. Why? because Apple won't LET YOU! I personally know this to be true because I have 2 rather pricy Firewire 400 audio interfaces that were turned into paperweights because of this. My MOTU 8 and an AVID M box Pro. Both tested and work well on a Windows machine running ASIO drivers, just not as speedy as ANY USB 2 audio interfaces. And speaking of drivers, Apple doesn't support ASIO driver, they only support their Core Audio drivers. Windows 7 may not support the Windows 10 dramatically improved WDDM drivers, but it still supports ASIO drivers. I'm not even sure if Win 7 even supports the radically improved wonders of ARA and VST 3 technology at all? I'm not sure about that, but I don't really care. But I am sure about the fact that Win 10 is SO MUCH BETTER, FASTER, SMARTER (due to telemetry), maintenance free, and secure then Win 7 across the board that I don't have to because I no linger have to worry about these and so many others things anymore.

With all due respect my friend there was a time when  luddites said that about electricity. They argued; "Why do we a light bulb when a kerosene lantern can burn so much more brightly?" But the world kept on turning as electricity came to pass, and people would evolve and realize how much better the electric light bulb was and how much better, cleaner, healthier, and so much less expensive their homes were to live in, and as a result, they managed to save up enough money to by more freedom, as in, in the shape of a new Ford, a.k.a an automobile.

 But the luddites argued; "Why would you need an automobile when a horse and buggy is so much better? Can an automobile be your friend or find it's way home if you get lost?" But the world kept on turning as mass manufacturing progressed and as the people came to realize that even though a Ford isn't necessarily loving friend, it wouldn't get angry bite you if it thought you were ignoring it and getting a little too slow providing scheduled meals. But a Ford doesn't care how much food is in it's belly and it doesn't have to be fed every day whether you use it or not. The only thing a Ford will do to you to get even is leave you stranded on the road if you forget to feed it, but who's fault is that? And so naturally progression took it's course, and people started to realize that  there was nothing inherently evil about automobiles. And as such, saved up enough money to replace their aging local telegraph operator service with a telephone in their own home. Of course what with being a luddite and all, their aging local telegraph operator didn't appreciate this act of treason as much as those committing it, but........... Well your local landline telecommunications providers don't really have any more appreciation for cellular service providers then your broadcast media providers do for the Internet, now do they?

But tough tutties for the luddites, because you can't stop the world from turning and evolving, and without evolution there would be no progress, and if the luddites had their way we wouldn't be here right now because we would not only have "None of these things." and it would be a never ending and ultimately improbable chore to try and get the smell of kerosene out of our hair and clothes.

 And so as the story goes... Windows 7 was freak'in AWESOME for it's decade, but it's decade has PASSED and now it's as silly and dangerous as using kerosene lanterns because both pose extreme security risks.. Windows 7 was never intended to be a life long friend, and now, it not only holds you back from progressing, your standing on shaky, unstable grounds as the world continues to turn and evolve, you are one update away from blowing up and nuking you entire computer and taking Cakewalk by Bandlab with it.. And if that's not DANGEROUS I don't know what is!

Luddite to Steev: I have another backup option if they take my Cakewalk away from me because I choose not to use Windows 10: sonar 8.5. On windows 7. forever. Days Of Future Passed  all over again. 

Also: Why do you care so much what operating system I use? Nothing better to do than try to re-educate me? Who cares? Get a life. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by mdiemer