Something in Cakewalk is WIDENING all my tracks!!!

[Marcello]

Hi there I'm having a very very strange issue with my Cakewalk projects

Basically I have 2 projects, in one of these everything sounds completely fine, on the other project the Every track sounds incredibly WIDE, meaning  they are not centered.

You can hear the difference here I exported the 2 drums tracks just as an example but for any other track is the same issue even with guitars:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F5mxhDq0mKMg1kVraYVcbdMZ2-1bWnJA/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mKaCWNQ9wMt6yJv6n0tH280royqYP4Tp/view?usp=sharing

 

Consider I did a test just exporting the drums bus in the project where everything sounds OK, then I imported them in a new stereo track on the other project where everything sounds wide, and the issue is the same!!!

Even though I added a new track with an imported file!

It looks like there is a stereo widener all over the project!!! What's going on? Anyone aware of any setting in cakewalk that could widen averything?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Marcello

[John Vere]

Is this related to all your other posts where this seems an ongoing issue for you? 

One thing comes to mind is a hidden tracks or buss. 

Open the track manager and look for hidden tracks. 

Another troubleshooting tip would be to bypass all effects in the control bar. mix module. 

If the issue goes away then it's defiantly created by an effect your using.  

[Marcello]

6 minutes ago, John Vere said:

Is this related to all your other posts where this seems an ongoing issue for you? 

One thing comes to mind is a hidden tracks or buss. 

Open the track manager and look for hidden tracks. 

Another troubleshooting tip would be to bypass all effects in the control bar. mix module. 

If the issue goes away then it's defiantly created by an effect your using.  

It is but I figure out it's on all tracks in my project.

I copy paste the tracks I barely create new ones cause it's more handy, that might have reproduced the issue in all tracks.

No Effects, i tried to open a new project,  copy paste the guitar riff in a new track in the new project, loading the same guitar amp plugin, the issue is not present.

So must be some track settings, the busses have no effects!

Edited March 22, 2021 by Marcello

[SteveC]

Did you try creating a new bus and assigning only one track to that new bus to check the results?   If it no longer happens then it's likely a bus issue.  If it does, then it's probably something in the track itself.   And if that's the case, try a new track pointing to that new bus and drop an audio clip into it. 

[RBH]

If you are copy and pasting and selecting clips often, make sure that you don't inadvertently select a clip while holding the ctrl key.  It takes very little movement after the key is pressed to make a copy of your clip and offset it by a few samples. After < bouncing to clips > this copy can become permanent to the new clip. I've caught myself doing this a few times and I do a lot of editing.

[msmcleod]

@Marcello - if your audio device is also being used by Windows, make sure that all Windows effects are off (e.g. Spatial sound):
 

 

[murat k.]

I bet you left BREVERB 2  open on your Master Busses ProChannel.

I think that way because the same thing happened to me once. ?

[Marcello]

No BREVERB is not on my master bus but it has it's own bus that has as an output the master bus.

[Marcello]

On 3/25/2021 at 8:37 AM, msmcleod said:

@Marcello - if your audio device is also being used by Windows, make sure that all Windows effects are off (e.g. Spatial sound):
 

 

No I checked that's off.

Anyway I solved with a workaround, very time consuming, I copied and pasted all tracks one by one in a new project, and re-done the settings.

I could not figure it out, I just realized I cancelled all busses and re-added new busses, redirecting the tracks to the new busses, and it worked! But only on one project, I did the same on the other song I did and didn't work. 

Very Very strange, anyway I solved now thank you all.

 

[Marcello]

On 3/25/2021 at 3:03 AM, RBH said:

If you are copy and pasting and selecting clips often, make sure that you don't inadvertently select a clip while holding the ctrl key.  It takes very little movement after the key is pressed to make a copy of your clip and offset it by a few samples. After < bouncing to clips > this copy can become permanent to the new clip. I've caught myself doing this a few times and I do a lot of editing.

DO you mean pasting a track over another one by mistake?

I don't think so because the problem is not on one track is on every track.

[murat k.]

1 hour ago, Marcello said:

No BREVERB is not on my master bus but it has it's own bus that has as an output the master bus.

Oh OK. So I understand, you checked all ProChannels in related Busses to the track. I told that because sometimes it seems there is no FX on the channel but there may be somethings going on at the ProChannel side. If there is no widening plugins on the ProChannel module of the Busses like BREVERB 2, Rematrix Solo or Space, check your Sends in the Busses.

[Marcello]

2 minutes ago, murat k. said:

Oh OK. So I understand, you checked all ProChannels in related Busses to the track. I told that because sometimes it seems there is no FX on the channel but there may be somethings going on at the ProChannel side. If there is no widening plugins on the ProChannel module of the Busses like BREVERB 2, Rematrix Solo or Space, check your Sends in the Busses.

I'm finding out the problem step by step and now I think I'm getting closer to the solution!
Indeed the freeG Meter plugin is transforming the mono signal in stereo! The one I had on the master bus was widening all my mix.
If I switch it off the signal goes back to mono.

I removed it from my master bus and all other tracks and sounds good now!!!
Now some tracks are also affected by the TH-U amp sim plugin, in some tracks the plugin is active but is not converting it to mono, in some other tracks it is.
Have you ever used TH-U?
Should the guitar tracks be transformed in stereo by the amp sim plugin? I think yes, because the track resulting out of phase is the one that is in mono (Arpeggio)

[murat k.]

38 minutes ago, Marcello said:

I removed it from my master bus and all other tracks and sounds good now!!!

Good to hear that ☺️

40 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Now some tracks are also affected by the TH-U amp sim plugin, in some tracks the plugin is active but is not converting it to mono, in some other tracks it is.
Have you ever used TH-U?
Should the guitar tracks be transformed in stereo by the amp sim plugin? I think yes, because the track resulting out of phase is the one that is in mono (Arpeggio)

Are you using these functions on the Track Strip ?     

You can convert any Audio & Instrument track or bus to mono and you can change the phase with these by clicking on the icon. 

Maybe it works for you in this case.

 

[Marcello]

1 hour ago, murat k. said:

Good to hear that ☺️

Are you using these functions on the Track Strip ?     

You can convert any Audio & Instrument track or bus to mono and you can change the phase with these by clicking on the icon. 

Maybe it works for you in this case.

 

No is not that, it's the THU amp sim plugin, basically I tried to switch to another pre-set in thu adding another amp, and it changed to stereo, so it must be some settings in the plugin.

I'm just wondering if this mono/stereo thing can affect the mix to become out of phase, not sure whether that's the cause.

[John Vere]

In my very first reply I advised you to by pass ALL effects. And now your saying the issue IS caused by effects so you obviously didn't take my advise.  

Most people use Cakewalk and have no issues. The ones that do simply can't follow the directions on the label. 

[Marcello]

5 minutes ago, John Vere said:

In my very first reply I advised you to by pass ALL effects. And now your saying the issue IS caused by effects so you obviously didn't take my advise.  

Most people use Cakewalk and have no issues. The ones that do simply can't follow the directions on the label. 

No because it was not an effect plugin, it's just a meter to see if the track clips, I couldn't think that would cause this issue honestly.

[John Vere]

But if you had followed my advise which was to by pass ALL effects using the toggle in the Track Manager you would have solved your issue a long time ago. This is the reason we do it that way. It eliminates all possibilities. It even toggles the Pro Channel. It's easy to miss those and would eliminate issues like @murat k. mentioned. 

I use that toggle when recording new audio or midi tracks to eliminate issues with latency and CPU load. 

If it's in the effect bin then what else could it be but an effect.  It is 100% in your signal path. It shouldn't cause issues  but if it does find something else. Lots of choices.  

I just looked it up and it seems totally pointless. It doesn't do anything the Master buss doesn't already do.

Use Span if you want a free meter that tells you a lot more than cakewalk. A must have tool in my studio.

That and the Youlean loudness meter paid version. 

https://www.voxengo.com/product/span/

https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by John Vere
added further comments

[murat k.]

3 hours ago, Marcello said:

No is not that, it's the THU amp sim plugin, basically I tried to switch to another pre-set in thu adding another amp, and it changed to stereo, so it must be some settings in the plugin.

I'm just wondering if this mono/stereo thing can affect the mix to become out of phase, not sure whether that's the cause.

You can figure it out by yourself by switching those settings in the image actually. And I think the same way, there should be some differences but not that much.

1 hour ago, Marcello said:

No because it was not an effect plugin, it's just a meter to see if the track clips, I couldn't think that would cause this issue honestly.

Honestly I couldn't think that either.  ☺️

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

I use that toggle when recording new audio or midi tracks to eliminate issues with latency and CPU load. 

Great tip. ?

[murat k.]

3 hours ago, John Vere said:

But if you had followed my advise which was to by pass ALL effects using the toggle in the Track Manager you would have solved your issue a long time ago.

After this all talk I thought even if Marcello bypass FX Bin he should look at all FX one by one to find what causes the problem. And it's good for him to figure out that he find that problem from an unexpected plugin. ?My god, who'd have thought, an Audio Meter plugin! ? 

3 hours ago, John Vere said:

Use Span if you want a free meter that tells you a lot more than cakewalk. A must have tool in my studio.

And I think this is a great advice too. ? Generally I use SPAN for metering purposes on my Master Bus.

[Glenn Stanton]

if the tracks and busses are all set to mono and things are still "wide" then i'd look at: 

- windows sound settings - disable all enhancements;

- speaker placement and make sure all DSP is turned off. having "room correction" running when the room is badly in need of fixing is going to result in poor stereo monitoring.

as a general rule all mono input to the speakers should result in a stable center phantom image. if not, then something is wrong in the speaker path, placement, or room interference causing a tiny sweet spot (meaning even small head movements are catching phase shift effects) as a result of comb filtering etc.

once that is working correctly, switching the DAW back to stereo and finding the plugins which are causing the "widening" effect should be much easier.