It's impossible.

[Shane_B.]

It's settled. The debate is over. You can't mix and master 100% in the box. I've tried. It's been going on 25 years. It can't be done. 

It's funny. I used to use crappy headphones and tiny single driver Technics toy speakers using only a Realtek chip on my P3 mobo with only 2 or 3 hours to spend on a Sunday because I worked 6 days a week. My mixes and masters came out better then using Sonar Pro Audio 9 than my mixes do now using Yamaha HS-8's, subwoofer, AKG headphones, Ozone 9 Advanced plus over $2K in other VST's, interface 9,000 times better than I ever had, more time than I know what to do with to spend on it, using S1Pro and CbB. Maybe it's an age/hearing thing.

There was a guy on the old forum who was extremely talented at mixing and mastering. He mastered everything using one of those inexpensive ART Compressors. I have one boxed away. I may give that a try. But boy, you'd think this would get easier with all the advanced hardware and software we have at our fingertips now days.

I just did a song and posted the other day. The mix was ok for a first try and only using cans but sounded rough in the car. I used O9A's tonal control, did an automatic mastering, and nothing I do gets rid of that harsh digital sound.

Bapu, your stuff sounds excellent as well as a lot of other guys here. Are you all ITB or do you use hardware when mixing and mastering? Please don't tell me you use LandR. Hah.

[Bapu]

I do all my mixing and mastering ITB.

[Shane_B.]

That's encouraging to hear. You've got this down pat for sure.

That song I posted the other day sounded pretty good to me on my headphones but when I listened in the car I was kind of embarrassed. It make me wonder if I'm just losing too much of the ol' ears.

When I used O9A's mastering automation it basically made a smiley face EQ with a splash of compression and limiting. It barely made any adjustments to my mix. The adjustments I made to my original post looked like a frowny face in comparison, and it was still harsh. Glassy is the term I use. It's too crisp and too clear. I use the car stereo as a guide. You can crank the treble all the way up for pro recordings and you can hear a difference, but it's not bad. On my stuff it's rough.

I'll keep plugging away at it. Got nothing but time on my hands at this point. ??

[craigb]

Someone stole my box...

[Bapu]

Who stole my cheese?

[craigb]

Shane needs to think more inside the box, ya?

[Shane_B.]

Ok. Had my coffee. Surfed the net. Gonna roll up my sleeves, put on my Bernie gloves, and dive back in. ?

[Byron Dickens]

Before, you were using your ears instead of relying on software to do it for you.

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

Well, you are completely right, but not for the reasons you might think.

The audio needs to come out of the box and be converted into audio so you can hear it and work on it.

Unless deaf mixing engineers exist.

[Bapu]

1 minute ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

Unless deaf mixing engineers exist.

So you've heard my stuff then?

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

1 minute ago, Bapu said:

So you've heard my stuff then?

What?

[Shane_B.]

34 minutes ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

Well, you are completely right, but not for the reasons you might think.

The audio needs to come out of the box and be converted into audio so you can hear it and work on it.

Unless deaf mixing engineers exist.

If I were to be honest with myself, I think I am losing my hearing at an exponential rate. It slowed down for a while but as I get older it's going quick. I'd like to say it's from something cool like being in a band for 16 years straight, which I was, but it's actually caused from chronic inner ear infections. Been that way all my life.

But as for Bapu's mixes. I'm serious, they are great. I can still hear a great recording, I just can't create it from scratch myself as well as I used to. I know the sound I want but I just can't achieve it. All of my music is right in your face where as good mixes/masters are transparent. You can't actually tell they are coming from the speakers. And a good test is like I said before, take a studio recording and crank the bass and treble all the way up in the car (assuming you have a decent sound system in your car). It should have more b & t but not boomy and piercing. Therein lies the trick to all this. Getting that part right. I think I'll throw a EQ with a smiley curve on it and some light compression and then mix. I have heard of master bus compression while mixing. Maybe my ears need an EQ boost of some sort too.

Let's see, I'll be 50 in a few weeks. Subtract the 25 years I've wasted, multiply by 20 for hearing loss, divide by 10 for too much technology and the wrong listening environment, and I'd say by the time I'm 122 I'll get this down pretty good. ?

 

[Shane_B.]

 

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

2 minutes ago, Shane_B. said:

If I were to be honest with myself, I think I am losing my hearing at an exponential rate. It slowed down for a while but as I get older it's going quick. I'd like to say it's from something cool like being in a band for 16 years straight, which I was, but it's actually caused from chronic inner ear infections. Been that way all my life.

While I'm not losing my hearing, I'm losing the ability to hear frequencies, which I keep being told is naturla and happens to everyone. In many instances I can't mix any style of music with lots of high fizz for long, as that makes my ears hurt.

4 minutes ago, Shane_B. said:

But as for Bapu's mixes. I'm serious, they are great. I can still hear a great recording, I just can't create it from scratch myself as well as I used to. I know the sound I want but I just can't achieve it. All of my music is right in your face where as good mixes/masters are transparent. You can't actually tell they are coming from the speakers. And a good test is like I said before, take a studio recording and crank the bass and treble all the way up in the car (assuming you have a decent sound system in your car). It should have more b & t but not boomy and piercing. Therein lies the trick to all this. Getting that part right. I think I'll throw a EQ with a smiley curve on it and some light compression and then mix. I have heard of master bus compression while mixing. Maybe my ears need an EQ boost of some sort too.

I don't think any of my mixes are good or even close to being good, no matter how many times you tell me otherwise. I'm constantly there.

5 minutes ago, Shane_B. said:

Let's see, I'll be 50 in a few weeks. Subtract the 25 years I've wasted, multiply by 20 for hearing loss, divide by 10 for too much technology and the wrong listening environment, and I'd say by the time I'm 122 I'll get this down pretty good. ?

Judging by how I see my hearing degradating, I'll be completely deaf before I reach 50. That might be pure exaggeration on my part coupled with what I said before, but still.

[Starise]

I don't think any of us are going to get any better on the hearing end of things.

One thing I did the other day was look at someone else's master I really liked. I used TRackS Master Match plug in. It takes a master you like and makes adjustment to your master based on it. I also had Melda's Mcompare but never really took a liking to it. Just too much involved in using it.

They guy  left downloads opened on his SC so I downloaded the track and put it into the TRackS master Match plugin. 

Here are a few hints as to why his master sounded so good. I usually roll off everything below 60hz. This guy had material in the 20hz range. You have to be careful though in how much you use and where you use it. Another hint-  There was a huge difference between soft passages and loud passages. If it had all been loud there would have been  no contrast. If you mix it right the material is very powerful when those climaxes come along.  Don't listen to my last mix. It is not representative of either good musicianship or a perfect mix. Listening to his track though gave me a basis for future mixes.

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

6 hours ago, Starise said:

One thing I did the other day was look at someone else's master I really liked. I used TRackS Master Match plug in. It takes a master you like and makes adjustment to your master based on it.

I tried that feature once and couldn't understand how you set it up or if it did something to the audio.

6 hours ago, Starise said:

Here are a few hints as to why his master sounded so good. I usually roll off everything below 60hz. This guy had material in the 20hz range. You have to be careful though in how much you use and where you use it. Another hint-  There was a huge difference between soft passages and loud passages. If it had all been loud there would have been  no contrast. If you mix it right the material is very powerful when those climaxes come along.  Don't listen to my last mix. It is not representative of either good musicianship or a perfect mix. Listening to his track though gave me a basis for future mixes.

I usually only commit to a mix because of an impeding deadline or because I've given up after starting over for the 30th time. That's not a joke.

[Shane_B.]

2 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

I usually only commit to a mix because of an impeding deadline or because I've given up after starting over for the 30th time. That's not a joke.

It's funny Starise mentioned the low end cutoff. I ripped a bunch of my first print (pre loudness wars) CD's from the 80's and analyzed them. All of them had a heavy slope cutoff below 100Hz. High end all varied. All of them had a -6db peak, -18db rms, and peaked out at -3 on the K-14 meter. I started mastering my songs to meet those specs and did some upload tests to Soundcloud. Night and day difference. The -6db Peak/-18db rms converted to SC's mp3 streaming format far better than mixing to -1db peak and not worrying about the RMS. I mix to K-14 now but I think I'm going to go back. There was a significant difference. The MP3 format is interesting. The algorithm was created only using a handful of acoustic instrument songs. Fast Car by Tracy Chapman was one of them IIRC. IOW, it wasn't made for all types of music.

Edit: To clarify I mean they used Fast Car as a reference song when creating the MP3 format as well as a few other acoustic instrument leaning songs.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Shane_B.

[craigb]

I use John Cage's song 4:33 as my master and it made all my songs sound better.

?

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

8 hours ago, Shane_B. said:

It's funny Starise mentioned the low end cutoff. I ripped a bunch of my first print (pre loudness wars) CD's from the 80's and analyzed them. All of them had a heavy slope cutoff below 100Hz. High end all varied. All of them had a -6db peak, -18db rms, and peaked out at -3 on the K-14 meter. I started mastering my songs to meet those specs and did some upload tests to Soundcloud. Night and day difference. The -6db Peak/-18db rms converted to SC's mp3 streaming format far better than mixing to -1db peak and not worrying about the RMS. I mix to K-14 now but I think I'm going to go back. There was a significant difference. The MP3 format is interesting. The algorithm was created only using a handful of acoustic instrument songs. Fast Car by Tracy Chapman was one of them IIRC. IOW, it wasn't made for all types of music.

Edit: To clarify I mean they used Fast Car as a reference song when creating the MP3 format as well as a few other acoustic instrument leaning songs.

Yes, but I was talking about mixing. Mastering is some process that happens somewhere in the end.

[Starise]

10 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

I tried that feature once and couldn't understand how you set it up or if it did something to the audio.

You mean using TRackS  Master Match? I had that problem with MCompare. Not intuitive at all. 

11 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

I usually only commit to a mix because of an impeding deadline or because I've given up after starting over for the 30th time. That's not a joke.

I have been less prone lately to over analyze a mix at the master stage. This is mainly because I just don't have the time. Having said that, I can get a decent master much faster than I once could. 

8 hours ago, Shane_B. said:

It's funny Starise mentioned the low end cutoff. I ripped a bunch of my first print (pre loudness wars) CD's from the 80's and analyzed them. All of them had a heavy slope cutoff below 100Hz. High end all varied. All of them had a -6db peak, -18db rms, and peaked out at -3 on the K-14 meter. I started mastering my songs to meet those specs and did some upload tests to Soundcloud. Night and day difference. The -6db Peak/-18db rms converted to SC's mp3 streaming format far better than mixing to -1db peak and not worrying about the RMS. I mix to K-14 now but I think I'm going to go back. There was a significant difference. The MP3 format is interesting. The algorithm was created only using a handful of acoustic instrument songs. Fast Car by Tracy Chapman was one of them IIRC. IOW, it wasn't made for all types of music.

Edit: To clarify I mean they used Fast Car as a reference song when creating the MP3 format as well as a few other acoustic instrument leaning songs.

TBH  I see two ways to mix for streaming. One way is to simply mix using only your ears in a good space or using monitor correction( or maybe both). Then look at where the levels actually are. It's all the same thing just measured in different ways. Back in the day it was db and RMS. Now its LUFS and the K system. One difference from now and "back in the day" though is most of their signal chain had compressive softening qualities to it naturally. I think this played a big part in the end results. Nowadays you have to add it in if mixing ITB. ....and mixing from start to master is an art of sorts. I stopped thinking in terms of " this is how a real environment would sound" or this is supposed to work like this or that.  In mixing everything is a trick and nothing is cheating so long as the results are favorable.