Can Cakewalk render surround 6 channels - even if no hardware outs?

[LarsF]

Hi
As I understand I can use 6 channel wave files.
And you can mix to surround bus.
If that bus is last before hardware outs - is audio to render picked up at bus out, or does it need hardware outs?

I have stereo out on RME HDSP 9632, and a free unused ADAT optical out, and figured I can route 4 outputs to these.
But since no DA is connected to those, will rendering 6 channel work?

Is ASIO used for rendering so it must be picked up another way to real DA converters?

I thought I would make test patterns for 5.1 sound and maybe 7.1 and render in PowerDirector as Dolby or DTS and test surround phones how well they position channels.
But would like to user Cakewalk recording the audio.

Or if there are such test patterns to download, that could be a cool thing to test as well.
Thanks.

[scook]

In the export dialog

• use Buses as the source category
• select the surround bus from Source Buses
• use Entire Mix
• set the channel format to multichannel

update - uses Buses did not work for me

Edited October 8, 2020 by scook

[LarsF]

Thanks.
So output is taken directly from buses inside Cakewalk and not dependent of that ASIO sense these outs as well?
And 6 channel wav file can be generated - not as forced on input to mono channels?

Can they even be unassigned hardware out if not needing to preview then. I can route this other way while recording and need listening what is there.

[scook]

OK, I just ran a test.

Export using the Bus failed so I switch to Entire Mix. Going to write a bug report on this.

All data was routed through a surround bus configured for 5.1 (film/alternative) in surround preferences

Pulled the wav into SoundForge to confirm it was a 6 channel wav.

I use an RME Babyface Pro as my interface.

 

[LarsF]

Wow, you tested - that's incredible, thank you. :)

Seems to pickup directly from within Cakewalk then, so outs not that important.
But will test both, and feed back here.

[scook]

I don't work in surround and should have tested before posting the first time.

 

[InstrEd]

37 minutes ago, LarsF said:

Wow, you tested - that's incredible, thank you.

scook usually goes the extra mile

[scook]

A little more testing with Entire Mix.

My first test just checked the file format.

Subsequent tests put audio on the tracks.

Entire Mix relies on hardware mains so in order to create six channels of audio requires six hardware outputs. I ended up using 6 ADAT channels on the Babyface. I have nothing connected to the interface ADAT ports.

[LarsF]

I'm just intrigued by this new stuff for 3D audio for phones - Windows Sonic and Dolby Atmos.
To normal stereo phones you produce full surround in as many channels as you could wish for.

But will test now my surround phones from Sony which take 5.1 or 7.1 input and will see how good positioning they do.
Front and back is usually what is overlooked what I saw so far. It's just becomes in your head.

This newer technology do true spatial processing into normal stereo phones - and that would be true 3D audio.

I'm bought this Wavearts Panorama 6 but it does not really do front/back positioning, it's all in your head on left side, over your head and to right side.
Problem with both Microsoft Windows Sonic and Dolby Atmos is that their business is built on selling decoders and/or encoders.
So you have to write for their API systems to target these decoders they provide for this.

I am hoping to find somebody that did both encoding and decoding like this in one box so you could feed and mix surround into true 3D audio into normal stereo phones.


I just love this idea to target stereo phones and do all kinds of positioning of music and effects. So many people listen inear phones or phones anyway today.
Here is good readup on windows sonic
https://www.howtogeek.com/356481/how-windows-sonic-spatial-sound-works/

[Noel Borthwick]

It looks like exporting from a surround bus (when category is set to buses) broke sometime in an early SONAR version. We'll fix it.
For now export the "surround main" by setting source category to hardware outputs or entire mix. 

There is no requirement to actually have multiple hardware outputs.

[LarsF]

Followup on my surround experiment.

First - producing a surround mix to a surround bus is excellent and easy in Cakewalk.

I don't know how many hours I spent in Cubase a couple of years ago to do the same - just getting meters and ability to send a track as a position in surround.

So went on with the  idea to produce Dolby 5.1 in a video, to send over spdif to surround phones I have - to see how well it does.

These phones use spatial processing with just one driver in each ear - and result is disappointing.

Forward and backward position is pretty much from your eyebrows to your butt.

There is never the true sensation of an audio source is x meters in front of you, or behind you either.

Real closeup positioning works a little bit - but overall I feel this is a joke.

So the spatial algos Sony use are not impressive.

 

So consuming many dozen YT demos on binaural 3D sound to phones is not any better either most of them.

To fool brain into getting true positioning of an audio source is just not there yet.

 

Anyway, I got the test done like this

- creating a 6 channel wav from cakewalk

- importing into PowerDirector and produce a video with Dolby 5.1 audio.

- setting up MPC HC player in pc to send this audio as spdif output to my phones

 

So in depth some crucial parts were on my RME setup to be fooled sending Dolby 5.1 to a single spdif out

- no ADAT outs could be hidden(nothing connected now, but still important)
- setting multichannel out in RME as well
- no speaker out in rme either
- SPDIF out and Analog 1+2 is also there separately

Going to windows Sound,
- a ADAT rack unit icon appears ADAT 1-8(it did not before having less than 8 unhidden)
- setting this rack unit to ADAT 1-6 16 bit 48k

Then in MPC HC player
- audio render set to ADAT 1-8 rack unit(now containing only 6)
- video audio out to SPDIF

 

This to play back on pc.

Hardware media players setup for surround audio output will work as well with this video of course.

To get really good surround feel I think you need physical speaker setup - so the direction straight in front or behind you is there in a physical way.

This as technology is today IMO about creating true surround to fool brain into believing there is an object in any spot in 3D environment.

Sideways it works to a degree muffling sound due to obscured angle from a source to each ear - but true in front or behind is a disappoint ment so far for me anyway.

But will get there eventually most probably and will be cool when you can create that image on just one driver each ear.

So for now I am dropping the idea to make binarual 3D mixes for youtube purposes that anybody could enjoy.