paulo Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) This forum is often censored. It has rules that state that certain subjects may not be discussed and individuals among the participants who sometimes feel the need to be offended on behalf of others (even if the others in question are not offended) and call in the censors, so I'd say debating the notion of whether or not freewill exists is pretty much redundant. Edited March 15, 2020 by paulo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 Back to Hume's point: the fact that 99.99% of people choose not to excersise it does not mean that free will does not exist. Neither does the fact that things happen which are beyond one's control. The existentialist position is summed up as "man's existence preceeds his esscence." My cat here is a predetermined being. He is a hunter and a carnivore. He can not choose otherwise. In fact, it would be harmful to him if he could. Despite the fact that he has a ready source of food available for the taking that he need do no work for, he still exhibits predatory behavior and will still hunt down and kill things. I, on the other hand, can be a hunter or a vegan. I can even be one thing one day and another the next. If a debilitating health condition forces me to abandon a long held career, I can allow it to devastate me emotionally and psychologically or I can view it as an opportunity to grow. If the cat (assuming his natural state without the human intervening to do the deed for him) can no longer hunt, he dies. That simple. Back to Neal Peart's point: even if you do not choose to exercise your free will, that in and of itself is a choice. We really have no choice but to choose. One way or another. As Sarte put it: "man is condemned to be free." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigb Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 Well, they do already rule over the internet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Screed Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Byron Dickens said: Well, they do already rule over the internet.... Cats rule the internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Screed Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) A Haiku (I'm just freestylin' right now) IF I thought like you The world would suck eggs and die Nothing to see here ? Edited March 15, 2020 by Jesse Screed forgot the smiley face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Screed Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Byron Dickens said: "man is condemned to be free." Very good! I still have a hard time pronouncing phenomenology. It is a very big word, and so objectively subjective. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Screed Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, DeeringAmps said: Is this the cat that controls the internet, or the one that is nuking us? Why does he(?) eat so fast but the tub never gets empty? Oh Mio Oh Myo Edited March 15, 2020 by Jesse Screed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeringAmps Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Jesse Screed said: Is this the cat that controls the internet If I told you, he'd have to, well you know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelhanson Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 On 3/15/2020 at 4:38 PM, Jesse Screed said: Cats rule the internet? Obviously! They keep stepping on my key board. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelhanson Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 (edited) I'm exercising free will at the moment, by not getting banned due to my beliefs. You have the free will to buy our CD's, by the way. Edited March 17, 2020 by michaelhanson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigb Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 7 hours ago, michaelhanson said: Obviously! They keep stepping on my key board. Then, when they think you're not looking... They post in your Facebook account! ? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Gerber Posted March 18, 2020 Share Posted March 18, 2020 (edited) On 3/14/2020 at 3:49 PM, Tezza said: You may have your view of the world as a utopian garden of eden adorned by selfless humans because that has been your experience, I would think it would be a sheltered one. Or it may be that it is just a delusion you have created for yourself so you can feel good about the world and your place in it. You see what you want to see. You might not even be aware you have created this delusion. Can you actually show (copy and paste) in my writing where I said that the world is a "utopian garden of eden"? I never said or implied that, those are YOUR words. Look, if you want to debate something, at least debate fairly and don't make up quotes that the other person didn't say. At least make an attempt to understand what the other person is saying before reacting. If you don't understand what someone is actually saying, how is it possible to agree or disagree? I said very clearly there is some free will in some people. Maybe you've had experience (when you speak of your own experience you sound a lot more down to earth and reasonable) of people who have been very self-destructive, I certainly know people like that as well. I know many people who also strive to live up to their potential--creative, ethical, emotional, moral, artistic, spiritual. The world is neither all good nor all bad because within every single person is light and dark, we can CHOOSE to evolve and grow and mature and integrate, or we can CHOOSE to self-destruct in self-pity, negative emotions, scapegoating, bad habits, etc. I'm not saying that anything is easy, just saying it's possible. And if you've spent time helping people in Rehab, I'd think you of all people would believe that if a person sincerely wants to help himself (herself) then others might be able to offer help as well. Is not that free will? Sometimes it's difficult to ascertain the difference within one's own psyche between "I can't" and "I won't"). Human psychology is complex, an amalgamation of so many things--biology, genetics, evolution, culture, family life, parenting, education, personal insight, trauma, people in one's life who've demonstrated courage, love and empathy,--and one's own hunger for discovering what is true, beautiful and good. I try to see the world in two distinct ways, neither one any more real than the other: How the world factually is, and how it ought to be. If we only see the world as it factually is we can sink easily into despair. If we only see the world as it ought to be we can become inaccurately judgemental and cynical. Best to do both in my opinion. Does not some kind of human volition, or will, enter into all this? Does not some degree of decision and choice have a mighty (but not absolute!) impact on the quality of one's life? Yes, of course there is good luck and bad luck that we have no control over. But good luck and bad luck cannot explain why one person achieves a certain amount of happiness and success and another person shuts down and gives up? It's a bit more complicated than that, yes? Quote Edited March 18, 2020 by jsg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted March 18, 2020 Share Posted March 18, 2020 (edited) Deleted due to poor taste in humor by my own standards which are pretty low already. Edited March 18, 2020 by Starise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Gerber Posted March 18, 2020 Share Posted March 18, 2020 On 3/15/2020 at 12:51 PM, Byron Dickens said: Back to Hume's point: the fact that 99.99% of people choose not to excersise it does not mean that free will does not exist. Neither does the fact that things happen which are beyond one's control. The existentialist position is summed up as "man's existence preceeds his esscence." My cat here is a predetermined being. He is a hunter and a carnivore. He can not choose otherwise. In fact, it would be harmful to him if he could. Despite the fact that he has a ready source of food available for the taking that he need do no work for, he still exhibits predatory behavior and will still hunt down and kill things. I, on the other hand, can be a hunter or a vegan. I can even be one thing one day and another the next. If a debilitating health condition forces me to abandon a long held career, I can allow it to devastate me emotionally and psychologically or I can view it as an opportunity to grow. If the cat (assuming his natural state without the human intervening to do the deed for him) can no longer hunt, he dies. That simple. Back to Neal Peart's point: even if you do not choose to exercise your free will, that in and of itself is a choice. We really have no choice but to choose. One way or another. As Sarte put it: "man is condemned to be free." Yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezza Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 (edited) The notion of free will is mainly pushed by those who are in a position to have more choices in the first place. It is a stable of middle class capitalists for example. It goes something like this: People have the freedom to make choices in their lives, those who make good choices will have a successful and happy life and should be respected for their good choices and seen as beacons for the rest of us. Those who make bad choices will have an unsuccessful and unhappy life but it's their fault due to their incompetence in decision making and we should condemn them. They brought it upon themselves. This is also pushed by various religious authorities who will site their written dogma as being "good choices" and if you deviate from their dogma, you are engaging in "bad choices". This notion of free will and decision making is lapped up by many as it gives us the feeling that we have total control over our lives, it makes us feel safe and secure. All we have to do is make good choices and we will be ok, those who make bad choices, well, they got what they deserve. It follows then that anyone who succeeds has done so because of their great character and decision making but anyone who doesn't make it in our society or struggles, it's their fault for their poor character, bad choices and decision making. The problem is, people can and do end up "successful" and happy through little input of their own. They are simply born healthy into a family, society and/or business that is already healthy and prosperous. They lead a sheltered life with little empathy for those less successful because they personally have never experienced hardship. It is essential to their self esteem that they believe they ended up where they did because of their own efforts and that those who are less fortunate ended up where they did due to their incompetence. Conversely, people can also be born unhealthy into a family and/or society that is poverty ridden with high crime and drugs. From childhood, they learn to navigate their world according to it's rules and what they are physically and mentally capable of doing. Very often, they are just trying to survive within that world. They also very often cannot escape that world because there are no opportunities around them and because they are rejected by the more successful. They also don't have the mental framework or education to allow them to step up and all of their social resources exist in that world. they may also have physical limitations in what they can do. It is essential to their self esteem that they believe they are doing the best they can given their circumstances and those who are better off than them were either given a silver spoon or are probably rich, distrustful criminals. Did both these groups of people arrive at their destinations due to exercising their "free will"? We all fall somewhere in between these groups, if not align exactly with them, all of us, no exceptions. Life is more about serendipity, ladders and statistics than it is "free will". We may luckily be born into a favorable environment, we may have the ability to recognize or be given ladders by others so we can step up. These can be simple advice or practical help etc and then we may recognize or not that we can adjust our lives according to statistics. You can control a bit what happens to you by recognizing how to place yourself statistically in life. Don't want cancer? don't smoke, have a good diet and exercise. Don't want a car accident? drive sensibly, own a safe car and don't drive a black car Maslow's hierarchy of values shows that in order for anyone to reach a place of "self actualization" where they have control and power over their own direction, a number of other factors have to be taken care of first. Edited March 19, 2020 by Tezza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 You have a very childish idea of what free will entails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezza Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Then tell me your version. But without the personal insults thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Attacking someone's ideas is not a personal insult. But you can certainly freely choose to react as if it is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertWS Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 3 hours ago, Byron Dickens said: You have a very childish idea of what free will entails. That was an insult. A very childish one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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